Wow ok we are up to 1ppm nitrite now and I have slowly added 1oz more of salt solution throughout the day as it has risen. I’m now up to 4oz of salt solution in tank. Please look at my calculations to make sure they are correct. The smallest neon periodically comes to the top. She doesn’t stay there but goes up to surface and then back down. Ammonia is still steady at 1ppm for 5 days now. Nitrates is 5ppm. Ta 1ppm NH3 0.0384. Not sure if salinity has raised enough to make a difference. I skipped feeding today to try to keep ammonia production down. Poor fish want to eat the dropper when I take water to test. I feel so bad.
Cycling 3 weeks with fish
- Thread starter mommy2girls!
- Start date
Oh and how much is the limit before the salt harms the tetras? I read since they are scaleless they have problems with it.
DON'T PANIC
Your math was off. Here are the calculations starting with .50 ppm of nitrite and then adjusted for 1 ppm:
1. Multiply your nitrite test reading by 10. This will give you the needed mg/l of chloride you need to add. .5 x 10 = 5 mg/l
2. Calculate the actual volume in litres of the water in your tank. If your volume is in gallons you must convert this into liters. (As a rule, using the advertised volume of the tank at about 85% will put you in the right ballpark.) 1 gallon = 3.875 litres. 8.5 x 3.875 = 32.94 l
3. Multiply the number in #1 above by the number of liters of water in #2 above to get the total number of mg of chloride you will need to add 5 x 32.94 = 164.7 mg
4. Because salt is roughly 2/3 chloride, you must multiply the number calculated in #3 by 1.5. You then know how many mg of salt you should add to the water. Dividing this number by 1,000 will convert this amount to grams which are easier to weigh for most people.
164.7 x 1.5 = 247.05 mg/1,000 = .247 gm. (I consider this as being .25 gm)
¼ teaspoon of salt = 2 gm. But you only need ¼ of a gm of salt. So, if you put ¼ teaspoon of salt into 8 ounces of water, you are putting 2 gm of salt into it. So 1 ounce of the solution holds 1/8 of 2 gm or .25 gm/ounce
So when you had had .50 ppm of nitrite you needed to add a total of 1 ounce of the salt solution in the tank. Another way to put this would be you needed ¼ gm.
But your nitrite has since risen to 1 ppm. This means you will need double the amount above or 2 ounces of the salt solution.
So, you actually have twice as much salt in your tank as needed. However, this amount is not a lot and the fish are not showing distress according to your observations. They are not gathered at the surface or in the filter outflow. So the salt is doing what is should to protect them. So I would not advise doing anything to reduce it by doing a 50% water change. This will also lower the ammonia and slow the cycling process. Since the NH3 is still in the safe zone and the TA is well under 2 ppm, you are OK on that front.
Because of the things you added I doubt that the nitrite will rise as high as might be expected. The TA has not done so either. So your tank is actually now safe for double the nitrite you have- i.e. 2 ppm. So do not add more salt if and until the nitrite goes over 2 ppm.
One last observation to make you feel OK about using salt. Here is an article that deals with salt as a medication. They talk about 3 levels of salt. They break it down into 3 different dosing levels.
Level 1 is 1 Tbsp Salt per 3 Gallons of Water
Level 2 is 1 Tbsp Salt per 2 Gallons of Water
Level 3 is 1 Tbsp Salt per 1 Gallon of Water
https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/aquarium-salt-for-sick-fish
There are 3 teaspoons in a tablespoon. But what you have in your tank right now, at double what you need, is 1/8 of a teaspoon in your 8.5 gallons of water. The above guide at the lowest level suggests using 1/3 teaspoon/gallon which is 2.66 times as much as you have.
Note that article (with which I do not agree in terms of what salt is OK to use) claims this about their lowest level of salt:
My point here is the amount of salt you are using is almost never going to be an issue. Maybe if you were having to block 5 or 10 ppm of nitrite you might need to be a bit careful.
Your math was off. Here are the calculations starting with .50 ppm of nitrite and then adjusted for 1 ppm:
1. Multiply your nitrite test reading by 10. This will give you the needed mg/l of chloride you need to add. .5 x 10 = 5 mg/l
2. Calculate the actual volume in litres of the water in your tank. If your volume is in gallons you must convert this into liters. (As a rule, using the advertised volume of the tank at about 85% will put you in the right ballpark.) 1 gallon = 3.875 litres. 8.5 x 3.875 = 32.94 l
3. Multiply the number in #1 above by the number of liters of water in #2 above to get the total number of mg of chloride you will need to add 5 x 32.94 = 164.7 mg
4. Because salt is roughly 2/3 chloride, you must multiply the number calculated in #3 by 1.5. You then know how many mg of salt you should add to the water. Dividing this number by 1,000 will convert this amount to grams which are easier to weigh for most people.
164.7 x 1.5 = 247.05 mg/1,000 = .247 gm. (I consider this as being .25 gm)
¼ teaspoon of salt = 2 gm. But you only need ¼ of a gm of salt. So, if you put ¼ teaspoon of salt into 8 ounces of water, you are putting 2 gm of salt into it. So 1 ounce of the solution holds 1/8 of 2 gm or .25 gm/ounce
So when you had had .50 ppm of nitrite you needed to add a total of 1 ounce of the salt solution in the tank. Another way to put this would be you needed ¼ gm.
But your nitrite has since risen to 1 ppm. This means you will need double the amount above or 2 ounces of the salt solution.
So, you actually have twice as much salt in your tank as needed. However, this amount is not a lot and the fish are not showing distress according to your observations. They are not gathered at the surface or in the filter outflow. So the salt is doing what is should to protect them. So I would not advise doing anything to reduce it by doing a 50% water change. This will also lower the ammonia and slow the cycling process. Since the NH3 is still in the safe zone and the TA is well under 2 ppm, you are OK on that front.
Because of the things you added I doubt that the nitrite will rise as high as might be expected. The TA has not done so either. So your tank is actually now safe for double the nitrite you have- i.e. 2 ppm. So do not add more salt if and until the nitrite goes over 2 ppm.
One last observation to make you feel OK about using salt. Here is an article that deals with salt as a medication. They talk about 3 levels of salt. They break it down into 3 different dosing levels.
Level 1 is 1 Tbsp Salt per 3 Gallons of Water
Level 2 is 1 Tbsp Salt per 2 Gallons of Water
Level 3 is 1 Tbsp Salt per 1 Gallon of Water
https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/aquarium-salt-for-sick-fish
There are 3 teaspoons in a tablespoon. But what you have in your tank right now, at double what you need, is 1/8 of a teaspoon in your 8.5 gallons of water. The above guide at the lowest level suggests using 1/3 teaspoon/gallon which is 2.66 times as much as you have.
Note that article (with which I do not agree in terms of what salt is OK to use) claims this about their lowest level of salt:
I also do not agree with the idea of salting all water for FW fish. I add zero salt to any of my tanks and have not done so in 22+ years. I do, however, treat with salt as a med. when it is needed.
My point here is the amount of salt you are using is almost never going to be an issue. Maybe if you were having to block 5 or 10 ppm of nitrite you might need to be a bit careful.
That matters. Here is a quick way to check. Retest for nitrite exept do this:
1. Fill the vial.
2. Add only 2 drops of the reagent solution.
3. Cap the tube, shake is as instructed and wait 5 minutes.
2 drops is 40% of the normal 5. So, testing this way should be 40% accurate roughly. So here is how you will know if it is 5, The test above should read about 2 ppm. If it reads much more than 2 ppm it is over 5 and you are then in the diluted testing zone. If it reads much under 2 ppm then you are likely under 5 and may be at 2.
Diluted testing is more accurate than changing the number of drops. The process above is only going to be a general guide, but it will give a quick answer. That answer may be that something more complicated is needed. If you had a 10 ml vial for testing that would be much better, That way you use the 5 drops and then multiply the result by 2. This is better than changing the number of drops.
Most of the math involved in tank chemistry is pretty basic in many ways.
If you have 2 ppm of nitrite you are already fine there with the salt you added. If you are over that you may need to add more salt. The other 4 ounces of the solution.
Also, from here on please post ammonia numbers when you post nitrite ones. Also check nitrate once a day at clase to the same time as you can with ease.
To anybody besides mommy2girls! who may be reading this thread, this should make it clear as to why I do not suggest people new to the hobby cycle with fish. It takes what can be an easy simple process fishless cycling and makes it a nerve wracking pile of things to do which take effort and knowledge. It is also why I will never write an article on how to do it from scratch
1. Fill the vial.
2. Add only 2 drops of the reagent solution.
3. Cap the tube, shake is as instructed and wait 5 minutes.
2 drops is 40% of the normal 5. So, testing this way should be 40% accurate roughly. So here is how you will know if it is 5, The test above should read about 2 ppm. If it reads much more than 2 ppm it is over 5 and you are then in the diluted testing zone. If it reads much under 2 ppm then you are likely under 5 and may be at 2.
Diluted testing is more accurate than changing the number of drops. The process above is only going to be a general guide, but it will give a quick answer. That answer may be that something more complicated is needed. If you had a 10 ml vial for testing that would be much better, That way you use the 5 drops and then multiply the result by 2. This is better than changing the number of drops.
Most of the math involved in tank chemistry is pretty basic in many ways.
If you have 2 ppm of nitrite you are already fine there with the salt you added. If you are over that you may need to add more salt. The other 4 ounces of the solution.
Also, from here on please post ammonia numbers when you post nitrite ones. Also check nitrate once a day at clase to the same time as you can with ease.
To anybody besides mommy2girls! who may be reading this thread, this should make it clear as to why I do not suggest people new to the hobby cycle with fish. It takes what can be an easy simple process fishless cycling and makes it a nerve wracking pile of things to do which take effort and knowledge. It is also why I will never write an article on how to do it from scratch
Oh man nitrites have sky rocketed! Look at this pic. The left is 5 drops in 10ml and the right is 5 drops in 15 ml 
l
Looks like maybe 2 and .5 to me. Would that mean it’s really about 4ppm? I have slowly added in the rest of the salt so there is a total of 1/4tsp in the tank now. Fish are acting completely normal. Swimming around and ready to eat every time they see me. I feel bad denying them but I just keep saying it’s for the best.
ok so now for a bit of good news. The Ammonia is dropping. It is now .5ppm and and nitrates have increased to 10.
lLooks like maybe 2 and .5 to me. Would that mean it’s really about 4ppm? I have slowly added in the rest of the salt so there is a total of 1/4tsp in the tank now. Fish are acting completely normal. Swimming around and ready to eat every time they see me. I feel bad denying them but I just keep saying it’s for the best.
ok so now for a bit of good news. The Ammonia is dropping. It is now .5ppm and and nitrates have increased to 10.
Sorry, another longish post. But I write this way in the hope that you as well as other folks who might read them will learn more about the process which should make it a lot easier to understand and to master. So I have a quick Q for moomy2girls!- if you decide to set upo another tank, how do your think your will cycle it? Please read the stuff below before you answer.
OK- I think your number for nitrite is not over 5 ppm if it is there. But it is a guess. However, the chloride is working perfectly. In 5 ppm of nitrite fish should be at the surface gasping not acting normally.
The colors in your pic do not match anything on the chart, imo. It may be the lighting. But I find the colors for the miyrite test to be difficult at best to read. However, the fact that ammonia is dropping is excellent. Ammonia controls the cycle. Hopefully the next thing is for nitrite to get under control. The cycle is a process and yours is finally going as it should- ammonia is dropping and nitrite is rising.
Here is what I am seeing. You were stalled somewhat and doing water changes was not helping. Especially, since they were more ore less not yet needed. I do not know what they have in API bacteria, but it appears to me not to be much help. I have used Dr. Tim's a number of times in the past, mostly for starting my bio-farm which gets a huge ammonia load compared to cycling a tank. It works pretty fast. I cycle a ton of filters in 10-12 days tops. I have never even considered using another product.
I would expect your ammonia to hit 0 soon. Part of how the process works is how fast the bacteria increase. This is not a constant rate. When one begings to cycle there is almost no bacteria. Lets say there is 1 percent of what is needed for ammonia and almost none for nitrite. So the ammonia will be rising in a fish in cycle. In fishless we can control the ammonia level comepletely in terms of what gets produced (actually added) to the tank.
So in about 8-9 hours the 1% of the needed bacteria will double to 2%. In the next 9 hours it double again to 4% then to 8% and then 16% etc. So the part of the cycle which involves establishing bacteria accellerates over time, i.e. it moves faster. Of course the more ammonia bacteria one cultures, the more nitrite there will be. However, the bacteria for nitrite reproduce more slowly than the ones for ammonia. The need more like 11 or 12 hours to double. So the nitrite rises as the ammonia declines. The process works this way.
The other part of this has to do with our test kits using the Total Ion scale. When a scientist measures this suff they are interested in the Nitrogen component. For the scientist 1 ppm of ammonia (NH3 and or NH4) = 1 ppm of nitrite (NO2) = 1 ppm of nitrate (N03) , notice all of these have one nitrogen atom. They use what is called the niitrogen scale for measuring. The other parts of the three chemical formulas are all different. The scientist measures just the N, but almost all of the hobby test kits measure it all- they count the H and O parts as well as the N.
What this means for us as hobyists is that 1 ppm of total ammonia now has an atomic weight of about 1.28 and that 1.28 and so 1 ppm on the nitrogen scale is 1.28 ppm on the total ion scale. This 1.28 ppm of ammonia can become a max. of 3.28 ppm of nitrite which in turn can become an max. of 4.43 ppm of nitrate. So the ppm numbers get bigger with each stage using the Total Ion scale.
Now if your read on dr. Tim's site you will see he works in the nitrogen scale. This is obvious when he states one should not let either ammonia or nitrite go above 5 ppm (as nitrogen). For us in the hobby we ned to use a conversion to turn Nitrogen scale number into Total Ion readings and vice versa.
So for us the max level for ammonia bbecome 5 x 1.28 or 6.4 ppm. ANd that 5 ppm of nitrite becomes 5 x 3.28 or 16.25 ppm. As you can see your API nitrite kit stops at 5 on the total Ion scale. And this is what diluted testing is all about. it is the only way we can accurately measure nitrite once the reading hits 5 ppm on the API test. At that point if might be 5, but if very easily could be more. The only way to know for sure is diluted testing which is also explained in the 2nd Rescue article to which I linked you.
Dikueted teting use pure water to dilute it which insures nothing in the dilution can cause the readings to change. Also there is nothing it pure water which can interfer with testing accuracy. But is also means one needs to have deionized water either by getting abottle of distilled water or having their own RO/DI unit.
So,you are nearing the point where if your nitrite goes over 5 ppm on the API kit, you have no way to know the actual reading/ You will beed a bottle of distilled water and to follow the diluted testing guide in the article.
Since you know that water changes act to slow a cycle, you also need to know accurate reading in your tank. How will you know how much salty to add if you do not know how much nitrite you have?
One of the things I did in creating the fishless cycling method I suggest was to design it in such a way as to make it impossible to ever hit the 16.25 ppm of nitrite which would then stall a cycle. It is all psossible by controlling the amount and frequency of ammonia additions. Thois is not possible to do in a fish in cycle.
OK- I think your number for nitrite is not over 5 ppm if it is there. But it is a guess. However, the chloride is working perfectly. In 5 ppm of nitrite fish should be at the surface gasping not acting normally.
The colors in your pic do not match anything on the chart, imo. It may be the lighting. But I find the colors for the miyrite test to be difficult at best to read. However, the fact that ammonia is dropping is excellent. Ammonia controls the cycle. Hopefully the next thing is for nitrite to get under control. The cycle is a process and yours is finally going as it should- ammonia is dropping and nitrite is rising.
Here is what I am seeing. You were stalled somewhat and doing water changes was not helping. Especially, since they were more ore less not yet needed. I do not know what they have in API bacteria, but it appears to me not to be much help. I have used Dr. Tim's a number of times in the past, mostly for starting my bio-farm which gets a huge ammonia load compared to cycling a tank. It works pretty fast. I cycle a ton of filters in 10-12 days tops. I have never even considered using another product.
I would expect your ammonia to hit 0 soon. Part of how the process works is how fast the bacteria increase. This is not a constant rate. When one begings to cycle there is almost no bacteria. Lets say there is 1 percent of what is needed for ammonia and almost none for nitrite. So the ammonia will be rising in a fish in cycle. In fishless we can control the ammonia level comepletely in terms of what gets produced (actually added) to the tank.
So in about 8-9 hours the 1% of the needed bacteria will double to 2%. In the next 9 hours it double again to 4% then to 8% and then 16% etc. So the part of the cycle which involves establishing bacteria accellerates over time, i.e. it moves faster. Of course the more ammonia bacteria one cultures, the more nitrite there will be. However, the bacteria for nitrite reproduce more slowly than the ones for ammonia. The need more like 11 or 12 hours to double. So the nitrite rises as the ammonia declines. The process works this way.
The other part of this has to do with our test kits using the Total Ion scale. When a scientist measures this suff they are interested in the Nitrogen component. For the scientist 1 ppm of ammonia (NH3 and or NH4) = 1 ppm of nitrite (NO2) = 1 ppm of nitrate (N03) , notice all of these have one nitrogen atom. They use what is called the niitrogen scale for measuring. The other parts of the three chemical formulas are all different. The scientist measures just the N, but almost all of the hobby test kits measure it all- they count the H and O parts as well as the N.
What this means for us as hobyists is that 1 ppm of total ammonia now has an atomic weight of about 1.28 and that 1.28 and so 1 ppm on the nitrogen scale is 1.28 ppm on the total ion scale. This 1.28 ppm of ammonia can become a max. of 3.28 ppm of nitrite which in turn can become an max. of 4.43 ppm of nitrate. So the ppm numbers get bigger with each stage using the Total Ion scale.
Now if your read on dr. Tim's site you will see he works in the nitrogen scale. This is obvious when he states one should not let either ammonia or nitrite go above 5 ppm (as nitrogen). For us in the hobby we ned to use a conversion to turn Nitrogen scale number into Total Ion readings and vice versa.
So for us the max level for ammonia bbecome 5 x 1.28 or 6.4 ppm. ANd that 5 ppm of nitrite becomes 5 x 3.28 or 16.25 ppm. As you can see your API nitrite kit stops at 5 on the total Ion scale. And this is what diluted testing is all about. it is the only way we can accurately measure nitrite once the reading hits 5 ppm on the API test. At that point if might be 5, but if very easily could be more. The only way to know for sure is diluted testing which is also explained in the 2nd Rescue article to which I linked you.
Dikueted teting use pure water to dilute it which insures nothing in the dilution can cause the readings to change. Also there is nothing it pure water which can interfer with testing accuracy. But is also means one needs to have deionized water either by getting abottle of distilled water or having their own RO/DI unit.
So,you are nearing the point where if your nitrite goes over 5 ppm on the API kit, you have no way to know the actual reading/ You will beed a bottle of distilled water and to follow the diluted testing guide in the article.
Since you know that water changes act to slow a cycle, you also need to know accurate reading in your tank. How will you know how much salty to add if you do not know how much nitrite you have?
One of the things I did in creating the fishless cycling method I suggest was to design it in such a way as to make it impossible to ever hit the 16.25 ppm of nitrite which would then stall a cycle. It is all psossible by controlling the amount and frequency of ammonia additions. Thois is not possible to do in a fish in cycle.
Well let’s start with parameters. I have zero ammonia! It dropped really quickly once it started to fall. Nitrite seems to be at about the same level as yesterday. It does not appear to have gone up any but it hasn’t dropped any either. Nitrate is 10ppm. Ph is still steady at 7.8 since adding the coral. I don’t know what exactly helped the cycle maybe stopping the water changes and allowing the ammonia to go up or adding the coral to raise the kh above zero or possibly a combination. Maybe just your magic touch reaching through the internet. I am beyond grateful.
now to answer your question: this science and biology lesson has been awesome. I have learned so much and my daughter has as well. BUT I will NEVER set a tank without a complete cycle ever again. I think that there should be a clause in animal cruelty laws to include fish stores not allowed to sell fish without proof of cycled tanks. I have time and a brain to do everything necessary right now to help my fish but I don’t have the heart to hurt them. When I saw the raw Ammonia burns on my poor fish’s gills I cried real tears. It still bothers me. My poor fish are still not in the clear but it is progressing now thanks to twotank. I am still walking on eggshells with these nitrites but the salt appears to be working. All my pets are acting very normal still. And Cheetos gills look almost healed.
PLEASE EVERYONE IF YOU CARE ABOUT NOT HURTING YOUR FISH, IF YOU HAVE A HEART, PLEASE CYCLE COMPLETELY BEFORE BUYING PET FISH!!!!!
now to answer your question: this science and biology lesson has been awesome. I have learned so much and my daughter has as well. BUT I will NEVER set a tank without a complete cycle ever again. I think that there should be a clause in animal cruelty laws to include fish stores not allowed to sell fish without proof of cycled tanks. I have time and a brain to do everything necessary right now to help my fish but I don’t have the heart to hurt them. When I saw the raw Ammonia burns on my poor fish’s gills I cried real tears. It still bothers me. My poor fish are still not in the clear but it is progressing now thanks to twotank. I am still walking on eggshells with these nitrites but the salt appears to be working. All my pets are acting very normal still. And Cheetos gills look almost healed.
PLEASE EVERYONE IF YOU CARE ABOUT NOT HURTING YOUR FISH, IF YOU HAVE A HEART, PLEASE CYCLE COMPLETELY BEFORE BUYING PET FISH!!!!!
just to let folks know how I learned a lot of what I have. The first is via reading the research papers. I lived on Google Scholar for the first few years of keeping fish. But the other I learned was from the aquaculture industry. This area is a much bigger business than the fish keeping hobby. I learned to use chloride from this paper from the 1997 paper from the Southern Regional Aquaculture Center
Nitrite in Fish Ponds
Robert M. Durborow1, David M. Crosby2 and Martin W. Brunson3
You can read this paper as a pdf here, it is not very difficult to understand. https://srac.tamu.edu/fact-sheets/serve/110
Here are some more great links:
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/entity/topic/fish_diseases
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/entity/topic/fish_parasites
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/entity/topic/aquaria
If one is truly curious and willing to spend the time and do the work, there are really great resources out there. These go well beyond what is on sites like this one or anything on social media as well. I have 175+ bookmarks which link to papers on fish related topics- the bacteria, the diseases, the toxicity of stuff, aquaculure and even scientific reviews of products.
Nitrite in Fish Ponds
Robert M. Durborow1, David M. Crosby2 and Martin W. Brunson3
You can read this paper as a pdf here, it is not very difficult to understand. https://srac.tamu.edu/fact-sheets/serve/110
Here are some more great links:
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/entity/topic/fish_diseases
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/entity/topic/fish_parasites
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/entity/topic/aquaria
If one is truly curious and willing to spend the time and do the work, there are really great resources out there. These go well beyond what is on sites like this one or anything on social media as well. I have 175+ bookmarks which link to papers on fish related topics- the bacteria, the diseases, the toxicity of stuff, aquaculure and even scientific reviews of products.
