deformed guppy/endler hybrids

[thatcrazyfishcouple]

Hi folks!

This is my first time posting in this forum but I have read several threads and learned lots from them so I thought I would come here first with questions from our latest venture. My boyfriend and I recently picked up a 30 gallon tank with fish, lights, heater, stand and everything, we had hoped to use this tank to move our guppies, lone molly, neon sword, sunburst tuxedo platy, and dwarf groumi out of our 75 gallon So our angels could have some friends more their own size. But the thirty gallon was crazy overstocked already with platies and guppies and apple snails. We took it home anyway figuring we could set another thirty gallon we already had and separate them into single species tanks. Once it was home and set up I took a closer look and noticed some deformities in the spines of many of the guppies.We ended up picking up a 55 gallon for 10$ with 2 heaters and an HOB filter. And that is currently set up and cycling with the deformed fish in it so they don't continue to breed with the healthy stock. Looking closer at the fish I pulled from the 30, I noticed the majority of them have markings and colours similar to the endlers livebearers (few large black dots and very vibrant colours) I had chocked up the deformities to inbreeding but now I'm wondering if this is a result of them being hybrids? Has anyone crossed these two fish and seen similar results?

 

[dougall]

Depending on point in time and perspective, endler's are guppies, or are their own species.

I doubt the deformities are due to hybridization, but maybe inbreeding, or maybe overstocking or water quality.

As for the new tank cycling, if the 30 is cycled, you could move the filter to the 55, and the 55s filter to the 30.. there should be enough bacteria on the hardscape already to limit any sort of re-cycling, you don't necessarily need to start from scratch each and every time.

 

[Tifftastic]

First off, welcome to AC!

To answer your questions, the crooked spine is more likely a result of being inbred for many generations and possibly water quality. I typically see it in fish that have been bred in poor environments, but also have seen scientific research calling it a genetic anomaly. In the latter case with generations of close inbreeding it can become exaggerated. It is in fact something that inspectors look for when they check the health of our fish here at the University.

 

[thatcrazyfishcouple]

Well there were HUNDREDS of fish in the thirty gallon when we picked it up so I really wouldn't be terribly surprised if the deformities are due to a combination of poor water quality and inbreeding.

As for the cycling, we kept everything the same in the thirty gallon, it was a well established tank and we reused the substrate, filters, decorations, and even kept some water in the tank while moving it (they're were fry we couldn't catch) and the 55 is used also with a used filter and substrate but I don't know when it was last used so I'm assuming the bio-filter is gone from that tank. I used some of the filter media out of the other tank in the 55 as well as some stress-zyme. Starting to get readings for nitrates today, how do I know when it is fully cycled?

 

[Ladysphinx]

Well there were HUNDREDS of fish in the thirty gallon when we picked it up so I really wouldn't be terribly surprised if the deformities are due to a combination of poor water quality and inbreeding.

As for the cycling, we kept everything the same in the thirty gallon, it was a well established tank and we reused the substrate, filters, decorations, and even kept some water in the tank while moving it (they're were fry we couldn't catch) and the 55 is used also with a used filter and substrate but I don't know when it was last used so I'm assuming the bio-filter is gone from that tank. I used some of the filter media out of the other tank in the 55 as well as some stress-zyme. Starting to get readings for nitrates today, how do I know when it is fully cycled?

A tank should be fully cycled once you ammonia and nitrates lvls both fall to zero

 

[p0tluck]

A tank should be fully cycled once you ammonia and nitrates lvls both fall to zero

nitrates should never hit zero, nitrites is the one you meant, ammonia 0 nitrites 0
nitrates 5-40 ppm

 

[p0tluck]

EDIT you can get nitrates to zero but thats like really hard to do , but i was also semi incorrect about nitrates as well 5-20ppm is what people say but there has been absolutely no study done on warm water fish we keep and how it affects them, im sure it does but its the end result of the nitrogen cycle, most people try to keep them <40 ppm with lower being better so 20 would be better than 40.

 

[dougall]

EDIT you can get nitrates to zero but thats like really hard to do , but i was also semi incorrect about nitrates as well 5-20ppm is what people say but there has been absolutely no study done on warm water fish we keep and how it affects them, im sure it does but its the end result of the nitrogen cycle, most people try to keep them <40 ppm with lower being better so 20 would be better than 40.

Plants will need nitrogen as one of their macro nutrients, I.E. Ammonia, nitrate or nitrite.. if plants grow enough, and fast enough, all 3 can be down to 0 without much thought.

This is why nitrates should not be used as the sole indicator for water changes and why a lot of planted aquarium people will need to add nitrogen/nitrate

 

[Tifftastic]

EDIT you can get nitrates to zero but thats like really hard to do , but i was also semi incorrect about nitrates as well 5-20ppm is what people say but there has been absolutely no study done on warm water fish we keep and how it affects them, im sure it does but its the end result of the nitrogen cycle, most people try to keep them <40 ppm with lower being better so 20 would be better than 40.

While it is true that the fish we keep are not often used in the lab as model species, plenty of studies of the effects of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate on freshwater and saltwater fish. Eutrophication (when nutrients are excess, usually nitrate or phosphate) is commonly studied and it is important to know both the acute and long term effects of an increase in these nutrients. Due to this, the effects of nitrate on all stages of fish (particularly salmon) are studied. While the effects on a single species we keep in aquaria may not be known, you can infer that a similar effect will occur in a smaller environment where fish are under higher amounts of stress and are likely not as strong genetically as they're wild counterparts due to inbreeding (particularly in species which are only captive bred and not wild caught).

Additionally, I would like to add that the acute effects of nitrate on guppies has been studied quite a few times, a google scholar search resulted in papers from both 1962 and 1977 as well as other fairly recent ones.

The end result of this research is that we should keep nitrates as low as possible, because even levels of 10ppm can have adverse effects on development.

 

[OrionGirl]

There are also any number of studies on zebra danios, which are in fact a lab staple.