Dwarf Rainbow with foot and mouth disease???

[mel_20_20]

I hope we weren't fighting, lol. Don't worry Fabio... that's what a forum is all about; people trying to help, often with differing opinions, usually polite, but not always, but always with good intentions, I do believe.

You really have had difficulties with your poor little fish. Very perplexing. Such a variety of signs and symptoms. Have you seen any more signs of the cottony stuff?

Can you describe the cottony stuff a little more in detail? Also, could you tell us more about the fish you had to euthanise; his symptoms and behavior?

I think for now, just keep up the Metro to finish the course, keep the water quality really good, and watch for signs of change - good or bad.

I'm hoping for the best, Fabio, please keep us posted.

 

[mel_20_20]

Fabio, please forgive this digression, this is neither the time nor place for me to address this, but since Cerianthus continually suggests that I have no experience with disease or illness in fish, other than what I read on the internet, I thought I'd set the record straight.

I have been fortunate that I have not ever have had a problem with microsporida to my knowlege, but I have had experience with:

Lymphocystis (eventually died)
Aeromonas (recovered)
Ich (recovered)
internal parasites of unkown type (recovered)
hemorrhagic septicemia (recovered)
popeye (recovered)
finrot (recovered)
serious truamatic injury (recovered)
bowel obstuction (deceased)
bloating from constipation (recovered),
Columnaris (recovered)
accidental chlorine poisoning (some deaths and some survivors)

So, I may not have had a laboratory full of fish that I experimented on for 40 years, but I am not a noobie and I have learned very much from my own experience with sick fish, from my diligent studies using a wide variety of educational resources, and, very importantly, from following threads that chronicle others experiences; threads by AC members that have fought long and hard to save their fish. I've learned from their successes and from their failures.

I also could add that I have helped others in the successful treatment and recovery from illness for quite a few sick fish.

 

[mel_20_20]

Geeeeze... I'm sorry I went off like that. :headshake2: I normally don't like to be so... testy... and self righteous.

I guess that's what insomnia, fatigue, and a headache after two beers on an empty stomach sound like.:crazy:

 

[fabiobruno]

Well I can just confirm that Mel helped me too in the past
And anyway Cerianthus I appreciate that direct experience is the best, but one doesn't necessarily need to experiment everything in person, I wouldn't stick my fingers in the power socket to check if it really hurts.

Anyway you guys make me laugh, but I'm honored you fight for me

Mel, no more sign of cottony looking stuff, the one in the tail of the female precox looked to me as a bacterial infection, maybe it was the weakest fish in the tank when the filter developed the fault while I was on holiday... maybe that was the trigger of all subsequent problems...

I wasn't very worried about the first death that fish must have been already weak and the stress of the netting and the not perfect water in the QT must have kicked that, but the second one worried me a bit.

Cerianthus, no I haven't noticed anything coming out from the lesions, this is the only sign that makes me doubt it is microsporidian (obviously not from direct experience but from what I found on the web and forums).

Today all seems to be stable, I'll update you tomorrow.

 

[mel_20_20]

Hi Fabio, how are things going. Give us an update when you can. I hope things are better. Glad Cerianthus and I made you chuckle...:hitting:

So.... we need an update so we can go at it again.. (just kidding)

Seriously, though... I hope Tommy and the others are feeling better.

 

[Cerianthus]

but one doesn't necessarily need to experiment everything in person, I wouldn't stick my fingers in the power socket to check if it really hurts.

Fab,

That's called "Stupidity" (LOL) but if one does not know why it hurts, shouldnt one trys to know why?

I am not suggesting to make healthy fish sick to learn but my point was that one should not question someone who have experienced various developing stages of specific diseases and on specific fish unless he/she have experienced similar situations which will make his/her question more viable/legitimate (another word, same level)!!!

Experiences are not just in quantity (yrs) but more so in quality (facility) as well.


Updated pics of Tommy possible including top views?

 

[fabiobruno]

OK let me give you a quick update.
I've been giving metronidazole to all fish in the tank for 6 consecutive days, last day was yesterday.
I've also added the antibiotic in the tank every second day 250mg the first day, 400 the second and 500 the third (400mg would be the dose for a 80lt of water, the first day I under-dosed to make sure the fish were OK with it) and I've now stopped (yesterday was the last day).
I had changed 25% of water on Sunday, the day before the first dose in the tank, and the day of the second dose (just before adding the antibiotic), I'm now planning to do the 25% WC on Saturday (BTW do you know for how long the antibiotic is active in the tank?).

Tommy is not getting better really, the lumps are worse, he's still very bloated, breaths very fast, goes up for air too many times, I've also noticed very thin and transparent poo. However he didn't lose his appetite and he swims reasonably well. I think yesterday was at his worst, today I would say he is marginally better.
All other small lumps I had noticed on the other fish seems to be gone.

Any recommendation?

And now the pictures: In order, the close-up of the worst lump on the 5th, the same side on the 7th and then the top on the same day.

 

[fabiobruno]

I'm very perplex...
Tommy is much better today but my second thick lipped gourami just departed... yesterday it didn't look in great shape, now in about 30 minutes it started to slow down the breathing frequency, started to lie on the bottom of the tank and being unable to go up for a gulp of air, and died just after I moved it in a nursery net (to take it closer to the surface)! Not a lot of external sign, just a bit swollen throat...
I had performed the usual 25% WC, with the usual TBSP of tonic salt, just a couple of hours ago, but every other fish looks fine... it must have died exactly in the same way as the other one....
I have quite a lot of green/black algae... is this a problem?

Any thought?

 

[Cerianthus]

Are you treating the main tank or individual in each specific h/t with this mixtures?

I strongly recommend not to mix different med unless verified by individual who can confirm such mixtures. I found such mixtures may render ineffectiveness of each intended meds and/or possibly such mixtures may create toxic environment for sick fish, even for healthy fish.

Although one major outbreak may have cuased many other sickness, chronic or acute, you should treat each specific fish according its/their symptoms.

I could see from pics that protrusion has progressed. Since first method of treatment did not yield any improvement, Why dont you consider trying method in the dwg provided? Depending on the progress Tommy makes, you can determine whether or not to use Minocycline, although Kanamycin wouldve been my first choice.

Try in 1 gallon of water. Just cut up the tablets/capsules proportionately as per volume of water being treated. Small aeration is recommended but not absolute since Tommy in Anabantoid. Follow the instruction given by mfr (duration and frequncy).

Can you see any fine red blood vessels in white protruded tissues?

Have you n oticed any cyst/lump developed before protrusion on Tommy? If lesion was due to any cysts, it shouldve left much deeper/larger and defined opening on the body.

Hopefully, Tommy recovers regardless of method of treatments you choose to take..

btw, pics of algae you are referring to possible? Although certain algae can create toxic environment but very unlikely if you have good circulation in the tank.

 

[mel_20_20]

Aside from Metro, what antibiotic have you been using? I know you have Minocycline (Maracyn 2), and Erythromycin (Maracyn).

I think you have been correct, Fabio, in treating the whole tank as every one of the fish has had these lumps that Tommy has had, although I think I remember that the first thick lipped Gourami that died was an exception.

Did this most recent Gourami that died have any lumps as Tommy or the others have had?

What symptoms did the two Thick Lipped Gourami display before their deaths? It seems logical to me that as many bouts of illness you've had in this tank, all the fish were likely suffering from the same illness, whatever this is.

This is truly a perplexing situation. I'm so sorry we haven't been able to help solve this riddle.

I think I would stop using the Metro at this point since I think it will have done everything that it can do regarding any parasites. The other fish do seem better, so that's good, but it is very worrisome about Tommy's condition, and the loss of the two other Gourami, and not forgetting the Praecox that died.

I think I would do several water changes, large ones, or more frequent small ones, depending on the ph/gh/kh of the tank water and that of the replacement water. Nothing huge if there's a significant difference in those, most significantly the gh and kh. If gh and kh are very close, the ph is not so much a problem.

I think I'd give it 24 hours running the carbon to remove any residual meds/chems and then try an antibiotic. I agree with Cerianthus that Kanamycin is an excellent antibiotic, but I think i remember that you don't have that one.

I think you do have Maracyn 2, which is a synthetic tetracyclne, but I don't remember that you have Kanamycin. Both of these are hard on the kidneys, but you may have no choice but to try one of those if you have that.

Cerianthus, what did you mean by "follow the directions in the dwg"... I don't know what that means, so I'm not sure Fabio does either so could you explain, please. I do think your suggestion to treat Tommy separately now is not a bad idea, especially if the others seem to be very much improved in the main tank.