Okay, so the ammonia has been .50-.25 all day. At last testing before a water change it was .25. Nitrite has been 0-.25 ppm. .25 ppm at last testing before water change. Yet nearly all the angelfish, along with one gourami have been lurking in the top corners of the tank. They seem to have no labored breathing, not gasping for air, and their gills are not moving any more rapidly then those of the fish nearer the. bottom (still active though). Is my test kit incorrect and the ammonia is higher? Or could this be from the salinity, temperature? I have three air stones going, and I took some of the water from the tank to increase surface agitation from the filters. I lowered the temperature slightly for a period of time to see if this had any effect, and they continued to hover there. I would almost think they were waiting to be fed, but since I'm new to fish I'm not sure how much I should worry and if this could be accurate.
Freshwater tank issues
- Thread starter Lillove1800
- Start date
My only suggestion after your penultimate post is about the second water conditioner. If you are using Prime, that is all you need. Adding another will have no benefit, and may be detrimental as it is adding more chemicals which is going to mean more stress, and you want to avoid stress as much as possible. It is OK to use the bacterial supplement, and the salt. But keep an eye on the fish...Prime is known to interact with things.
To the last post, keep in mind that the test kits read ammonium as ammonia, and detoxified nitrite as nitrite. Prime detoxifies ammonia by changing it to the basically harmless ammonium form, but this will still show as "ammonia" with the API test. Similarly, Prime somehow binds nitrite, but the test will still show it. As long as the fish are not showing signs of poisoning, you're fine. Daily 50% water changes until ammonia and nitrite remain zero; Prime's detoxification of ammonia is permanent (according to Seachem), but nitrite only lasts about 24-36 hours after which it again becomes toxic, hence the daily water changes. Nitrate can rise, not an immediate problem.
The fish are going to be under considerable stress from what they have been through, from the salt, from the higher temp (some more than others), and from fighting off the parasites. It sounds like they are managing. Don't expect lively behaviours. Keeping them quiet (i.e., less stress) is best.
Byron.
To the last post, keep in mind that the test kits read ammonium as ammonia, and detoxified nitrite as nitrite. Prime detoxifies ammonia by changing it to the basically harmless ammonium form, but this will still show as "ammonia" with the API test. Similarly, Prime somehow binds nitrite, but the test will still show it. As long as the fish are not showing signs of poisoning, you're fine. Daily 50% water changes until ammonia and nitrite remain zero; Prime's detoxification of ammonia is permanent (according to Seachem), but nitrite only lasts about 24-36 hours after which it again becomes toxic, hence the daily water changes. Nitrate can rise, not an immediate problem.
The fish are going to be under considerable stress from what they have been through, from the salt, from the higher temp (some more than others), and from fighting off the parasites. It sounds like they are managing. Don't expect lively behaviours. Keeping them quiet (i.e., less stress) is best.
Byron.
Ah thanks it didn't say there could be interactions, I will definitely start using only the prime and bio enhancer for the water changes, and I'm doing the third now.
As for prime and ammonia. That might explain why it didn't actually go down following the second change since it's still in there just in a different form. They seem to be okay, and I know I'm probably worrying enough for two so thank you for putting up with all my silly questions. Just in case even though they weren't gasping or laboring to breath I am adding a fourth air stone. I figure lots of air can't really hurt. Thank you again Bryon, I can't say that enough in exchange for helping to keep these fish alive:thm:
You are certainly welcome. I am happy to have been able to provide some advice. And questions are never silly; we learn by asking.
No problem with the air stones, good idea.
Good luck (I know how stressful it is to be going through a disease/health issue, and not knowing exactly what is happening), and keep us updated.
Byron.
Thanks Bryon, I felt guilty for joining the site then immediately asking questions. But, you and the others who have posted have been so nice, and very helpful. As for an update at 12:30am I did another test:
ammonia: 1 ppm
nitrite: .50 ppm
I immediately did another water change, added bacteria, and more prime, as well as adding the salt back. I see nearly all of the fish hovering near the top of the tank, so I'm really hoping that all are still alive in the morning. I'm considering switching to a medication for the ich (after several water changes with no salt re-added), but I can't really find much as to whether that would be a faster less stressful cure. Even though Prime converts the ammonia from what I've read it still shouldn't go above 1ppm. Is this correct or should I stop changing water when it gets over .50 ppm? Same for nitrite.
ammonia: 1 ppm
nitrite: .50 ppm
I immediately did another water change, added bacteria, and more prime, as well as adding the salt back. I see nearly all of the fish hovering near the top of the tank, so I'm really hoping that all are still alive in the morning. I'm considering switching to a medication for the ich (after several water changes with no salt re-added), but I can't really find much as to whether that would be a faster less stressful cure. Even though Prime converts the ammonia from what I've read it still shouldn't go above 1ppm. Is this correct or should I stop changing water when it gets over .50 ppm? Same for nitrite.
I would stay the course with the salt and heat. Adding a medication is just keeping the tank in further turmoil and instability, IMO. Between the ich, heat, salt, and recent move, they have enough to handle without another chemical shifting things around. I would also do enough, and large enough WCs to keep ammonia below 1 ppm, ensuring the water added back is at the same salt concentration as the tank.
I'm staying the course with the salt, I did some reading about the chemicals in the ich treatments. It would seem to me salt while still a medication in this instance seems less stressful. Especially given the situation of the tank. So far this morning no deaths! Still have some hovering near the top but still no labored breathing or gasping from the surface. Just hovering half an inch from the surface, they will swim around every so often.
The tank is definitely getting nitrites now so I'm taking that as a good sign that it's starting to cycle. Hopefully, I can keep it going and not lose more fish!:goldfish:
As for as water change so far I haven't gotten above .50 ppm of Nitrite if I do, is it safe to do a 50% water change all at once or could it possibly cause more harm then just doing multiple 25% water changes? Currently I do around three a day, during which I never touch the gravel (I did this once and an ammonia spike was not far behind). I don't mind doing multiple 25's but if it were to spike I just wonder if it would be safe to do 50. I've read some people say no, and others say yes.
Sad day, I checked the tank params:
ammonia 0
nitrite 1 ppm
While performing a water change I found three of the angels that had died.
ammonia 0
nitrite 1 ppm
While performing a water change I found three of the angels that had died.
First, on the dead fish, this is what I would expect. Things got very bad for the fish long before you took this tank on. High ammonia (which back then would have been toxic ammonia) or nitrite is very poisonous and even when fish live through "cycling" the effects internally are still there and weaken the fish. Adding ich increases this, as does any form of stress. Fish that live through initial cycling seldom live healthy normal lives thereafter.
Add to this the ich, and the salt, and the heat...sometimes this is all just too much.
Do at least a 50% water change during this period. Look at it this way: changing half the water is only reducing the toxins by half, so doing less than 50% is reducing them even less. And do vacuum into the substrate; some believe this can help pull out the ich, and I don't know if this is true or not, but it does remove sources for more ammonia/nitrite.
The numbers are looking good, so cycling is on the march. Remember Prime is detoxifying that nitrite, so daily water changes using Prime will not cause more issues with nitrite as it rises.
Byron.
Add to this the ich, and the salt, and the heat...sometimes this is all just too much.
Do at least a 50% water change during this period. Look at it this way: changing half the water is only reducing the toxins by half, so doing less than 50% is reducing them even less. And do vacuum into the substrate; some believe this can help pull out the ich, and I don't know if this is true or not, but it does remove sources for more ammonia/nitrite.
The numbers are looking good, so cycling is on the march. Remember Prime is detoxifying that nitrite, so daily water changes using Prime will not cause more issues with nitrite as it rises.
Byron.
Thanks Bryon, I did the first change when it hit 1 ppm nitrite as a 50% and was worried that it would do them harm. Having you confirm it's safe just took a huge pile of worry off lol. At the next water change I'll do the gravel, I was concerned after reading some places that messing with the gravel during a cycle could set it back. Yet, the tank has ich so the ich ends up in the gravel. Such a mess, lost a 4th angel a few minutes ago sadly. I'm stocked on prime, I bought all 14 bottles the fish store had since I do so many water changes, stocked up in the bacteria as well. I did purchase a 100 gallon tank and have set it up to start cycling(fish less of course! Stressing over one tank cycling with fish is enough), I followed some of the posts that I found on the forum so any survivors from this tank can move to a larger home when it finishes. I also (this is probably overkill but...) for the time being picked up two more pumps and added four more air lines into the tank. Sadly the tank just can't seem to catch a break--we're supposed to get some nasty thunderstorms and being as I live in a secluded area we tend to lose power when it storms, so I purchased a generator to power solely the tank and all its additions in the event the power kicks off:nilly:. I will be extremely glad when this tank completes its cycle and all the ich is gone lol, then I won't have to wake up every morning wondering if I'm going to be burying more fish. I don't mind the work, but fishing out dead fishes makes me so sad. At least, it's on its way and getting better. I can't imagine how bad it was before he brought it over...especially since all the fish were in the tank during the 45 minute drive from his side of the county, and with no filtration!
Thanks again Bryon, I admit I check this religiously to see if you've posted because your advice is always so helpful.
Thanks again Bryon, I admit I check this religiously to see if you've posted because your advice is always so helpful.
