From Meds to none - NOW WHAT?

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mel_20_20

AC Members
Sep 1, 2008
3,300
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Deep in the heart of texas
I don't think you listed your ph before, what is it? Earlier you mentioned 7, but if it's steady that's OK.

This illness has been confoundingly persistant.

This is a conundrum. The fins say water quality issues, but you're taking good care of that. You're tap water has ammonia but you nuke it with Prime and do daily water changes so additional ammonia from the fish are kept in check.

He's been through a full 10 days of Maracyn/Maracyn II, a day or two break, then Jungle labs FUNGUS CLEAR, then a break, then 10 days of Furan 2/Kanacyn, he's once again on a break with pristine water and now he's got the white cottony stuff on his fins.... again.

OK... I think this is what I'd do. Get a sterilite tub at WalMart, 5 or 10 gallon, set it up with filter and heater. Get cat into it, acclimate appropriately.

Strip down the 20 gallon and sanitize it. Remove substrate, plants, decor. Sanitize any decor or wood. Sanitize the heater, filter, tubing, all implements. Set it back up with fresh water. New filter material.

Re-seed the filter with healthy bacteria, from where? I don't know. You could order Dr. Tim's Original Nitrifying supplement, or get this substrate that already has beneficial bacteria in it:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21412

(right now shipping is only $5.99)

Or just plan on cycling it over a period of a time; I'd go fishless cycling.

Ask your pharmacist for some Chloramphenicol... I think this must be a resistant bacteria we're dealing with, it's in your tank and I'd nuke it out of him and sanitize it out of your 20 gallon tank.

He can live in the hospital tank for as long as needed, even when the antibiotic treatment course is completed, even until you get the 20 gallon clean and cycled.

This sounds like a lot of work, and it is. I don't know if you have the energy and strength to do all this, and the money after all you've spent so far, but I think this last big gun antibiotic is his best chance to nuke what seems to be a resistant baterial inection.

I wish I lived nearby... I'd help with all the labor involved, but get whatever help you can from your mate and/or anyone else.

We could keep throwing antibiotics at him, but we've been through so many treatment protocols with him.

I wish I knew a more simple way to proceed, but I think nothing else is going to work in the absence of being able to culture the offending bacteria and test for antibiotic sensitivity.

I wish we knew what your water is like in regards to minerals, general hardness and carbonate hardness. I wonder if we supplemented his water with electrolytes, calcium, and magnesium which are essential for good health and redox...

Are you up for testing your water for those things and supplementing if needed. If you can't buy the tests, then maybe Big Al's could test the water for you.

You might try to get some good spring water with good mineral content to use in the hospital tank while treating him.
 

cptkd

AC Members
Nov 4, 2008
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I was sort of thinking the same thing regarding the
sanitizing of the 20g, and I sure can't do it with him in there -
Not if I want to completely strip it down.....

As much as it sounds like ALOT of work, HE IS worth it to me -
Some would say "I'm crazy" for doing it, but I can't just let him
go on until he dies like this.... I am not that kind of person -
EVEN if it is a three dollar fish!

I've got to re-read all the info you wrote, and obviously get
myself a plan together....
And YES - I sure wished you lived closer too....

Not sure who's gonna WANT to help with this one, but
even if I have to do it alone, so be it -
NOt the first time - Won't be the last!

I did water params BEFORE W/C today,
and am going to do W/C now....
Will re-check the params after the change
and post -

See what comes up before and after!

He's been out sooooo much, it's almost scary!
I think he's lonely....

Anyways, after w/c will try to get some pics when I
give him his treats later... Will have to EMAIL you if
I get any worth sending, k!
Either way, I'll let you know -
 

cptkd

AC Members
Nov 4, 2008
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Sorry Mel -
PH's levels have been reaching
up to 7.8!
Not usually that high for my tanks....
 

mel_20_20

AC Members
Sep 1, 2008
3,300
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38
Deep in the heart of texas
You must be extremely careful with Chloramphenicol. There have been instances of Aplastic Anemia after incidental exposure to chloramphenicol. It's believed that some people are affected by minimal exposure. I think overall the rate of incidence is 1/30,000, but for those with special sensitivity it's 100%.

Aplastic Anemia is a failure of the blood forming system in the bone marrow. Blood cells live for approximately 120 days but are constantly being replaced. When one has Aplastic Anemia... there are no replacements and eventually there is death, unless there are extreme measures, i.e., constant replenishment through blood transfusions.

Use extreme caution to not get any of the powder, or tank water containing it, at any time, on your skin. Do not inhale any of the powder. Be careful of any powder residue on surfaces. Siphoned water containing it should be disposed of carefully.

I sound like I'm trying to scare you, and I am, but I actually would like to have some of it in my arsenol of medications. I would handle it like it's Anthrax, lol.
 

cptkd

AC Members
Nov 4, 2008
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WOW!
Gonna make me "poop" my pants going on like that!

Think I'll bring a water sample in to Big Al's and see
what they come up with - I can actually BUY water there
if necessary, so there are some options, right!

I am tired, and I just want to save his life - All of their lives!
And I'll do it whichever way I have to....
Right now, priority is CAT and whatever is in that tank -

Still trying to sort out how to do all this, but the plan will
definately come into action tomorrow - First thing!

You're sure he'll survive in some plastic tub with just
the basics - I have an extra heater, and my old filter
with extra carbon filters in there.... I just don't want
him to kiel over due to the massive enviro change -

I'd die if that happened to him -

Guess there's no way of
me cleaning out the 20g while he remains in it, eh - I could
remove everything, clean it up, soak in Prime and return
to tank, no?

Guess that doesn't work for the substrate since I can't take
all that out, but I could with the plants, filter, heater, etc...
Oh, I don't know -

I suppose it's that time to start all over again....
I know how we tried to not have this happen, but
looks like that's how it ends, huh?

It's ok - We'll have learned something else at the end
of it all, right?

THX, Mel!
 

mel_20_20

AC Members
Sep 1, 2008
3,300
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38
Deep in the heart of texas
He will be fine in a sterilite container. I had some silk aquarium plants, leafy ones, and had a resin cave-like decor piece and those offered a sense of security, but you could break a small terra cotta pot in half, lengthwise, to make a cave.

If you have a plastic cave or anything like it, that you have been using, you could soak it in bleach water, rinse it really good, then give it a soak in water with an extra dose of dechlorinator and then it would be fine to use in his plastic hospital.

Just give it a good sniff test to make sure you don't smell any chlorine before you use it.
 

mel_20_20

AC Members
Sep 1, 2008
3,300
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38
Deep in the heart of texas
He really does need something to hide in to feel safe. You could use a pottery mug, even. Something that wouldn't roll around, though.
 

cptkd

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Nov 4, 2008
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ok - Thanks Mel!
Just gave me an idea...
He's fascinated with barrells and so
after your cleaning suggestion, he
can have his
usual tank barrells....
I will make TRIPLE sure, there is no
trace bleach left on them....

Will let you know how things all
go tomorrow - Doc apt at 1100hrs,
so want this all done BEFORE I have
to go -

Up bright and early....Back to the
TANK I go.....LOL!
 

cptkd

AC Members
Nov 4, 2008
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Well so far, so good...
"Touch wood"!

I did things a little different
than what I'd originally planned,
and right now, things are seeming
to remain at bay -

Not sure for how long, or if things
will finally be ok, but if all else
fails, I'll go back to the original
first plan....

As it stands - Everyone is still in
their own tanks. Things within the
tanks have been thoroughly cleaned,
the gravel vacuumed deeply over a
period of days during w/c. Prime has
been a major factor with everything,
and water testing has sent me into
scientist mode.... Think I'm gonna
get me a 'lab coat' - NICE!
I'm forever walking around with my
test kit, test tube in hand to collect
more water....LOL!

Anyways, no one's looking worse for
wear, and short of CAT looking so
lonely and desperate for a mate to
hang with, things seem to be at a
temporary plateau... They are all
eating like ravenous pigs, and though
some things still don't quite appear
to be back to 'normal', they all seem
to be acting normal -

I spoke with Big Al's and will be bringing
in a sample of water for them to check
for me... In the meantime, I'm set to go
should I need to Hospitalize/Quarantine
anybody urgently....

Got some pics, but need to review them
to ensure they're a little clearer than last
time - Will send to Mel, if they turned out,
ok -

So yeah! That's that!
And,
HAPPY NEW YEAR to everyone here at AC!

Kim
 

mel_20_20

AC Members
Sep 1, 2008
3,300
1
38
Deep in the heart of texas
Sorry I'm late checking on this. I'm glad they seem to be holding their own. Pristine water has to be helping them.

I know your tap has ammonia, so even after a water change you are going to see levels, that's why the extra Prime has been a big factor in helping.

I'm sure your biofilter is fried, so constant water changes and extra Prime will continue to be needed until your biofilter recovers.

A lot of AC members have some ammonia in their tapwater, but their biofilter knocks it out, so when yours recovers that should be the case as well. I would probably always use a bit more Prime than the usual dose for a 20 gallon, just to handle it.

Sounds like your vacuum job may have helped remove mulm and goo that needed to be removed. I know you have excellent water change habits, but I think until your biofilter recovers I'd continue to do daily big water changes.

It will be good to learn your gh and kh when you get it tested at Big Al's. I'd take a sample of tap water, and a tank water sample taken just before a change.

Keep us posted, and send those pics when you can.
 
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