going after blue-green algae

[NowherMan6]

ive been having a bad outbreak of blue green algae for the past few weeks and im tired of cleaning it off only to have it come right back.

ive just started using the black out method to try to get rid of it. ive just done a big water change and cleaned all of it out of the gravel and as much as i can off of the driftwood and glass sides. now i have the tank completely covered with towels. is there anything else i should be doing in addition? some threads here mentioned dosing KNO3 for my plants - do i need to do this, and if so how? i apologize for my ignorance as to plant nutrition, but im kinda winging it here. thanks in advance


rich

 

[TwoTankAmin]

A single dose of EM (also the main ingredient in Mardel's Maracyn) will usually kill off BGA. Sometimes a two day dosing regimin is needed. Be sure to vac the tank and clean your filter media right away as all the dead bga can cause an ammonia spike.

I have battled bga a couple times and in one tank the only way i kept if rom returning was to tripple team it. After you vac as much as possible out. 1- Water change. 2- EM dose for 2 days. 3- Blackout 2 days. Then clean.

 

[plantbrain]

Yes, you need to add KNO3, It's much cheaper than EM and unlike EM, it's a plant nutrient and helps the plants to grow.
Poor p[lant growth is why you have algae in the first place, EM is a waste in the long term, it only kills something for awhilke, then the tank is reinfected and you still have the same issue.

Blackout is free, takes 3 days, EM cost $ and takes 5 days.

Not sure why anyone would even suggest EM given these arguements.

Even the worst cases of BGA were effectively killed off and have never return in dozen of instances with the 3 day black.

You need to add 1/4 teaspoon KNO3 per 25 gal of tank before and after treatment. And then thereafter about 1-3x a week depending on the tank and plant biomass etc.

Take care of the plants and you will not have algae issues, neglect and you will.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[NowherMan6]

Take care of the plants and you will not have algae issues, neglect and you will.

yes, I'm coming to understand this now

however, i already started my blackout last night without adding KNO3, so i hope that'll be alright.

also, would it help to increase the amount of plants in my tank after the blackout, or after beginning to add the potassium nitrate? and should i leave my fast growers - specifically hornwort - in there? i feel like it'll suck up all the KNO3 before others like my vals and cypts and anubias have a chance at it...

 

[superjohnny]

My LFS sells erythromycin for $0.75/pill and recommended using a 2 pill dose twice with large water changes before each dose and that worked in my 45g. I got BGA all of the sudden after having my tank set up for almost 2 years. It was the first sign of algae for me in that tank for a long time. The problem with BGA is that it is not algae, but bacteria. If you are successful with a blackout you are certainly not guaranteed the BGA will be gone forever because it can and most likely will return. It can stay dormant for months & years (or so I've read).

IMO you're better off dosing the erythromycin and being done with it.

Here's some good reading: http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/cyanobacteria.html#4
I thought this piece was particularly interesting:

Cyano-bacteria (Cyanophyta), like other bacteria, exist in one of three states:
a slimy community called a "biofilm", a singular free-floating "planktonic"
form, and a dormant "ultra-micro bacterium" (UMB).

When cyano-bacteria can't get enough food, they shut down and shrink to
one-third their normal size as a UMB. They can exist this way virtually
forever, floating around or buried. When they again encounter food, they
convert back to the planktonic form. When there are enough bacteria floating
around, and plentiful food, they group together, clamp to a surface, and
trigger genes that make a slimy covering. Bacteria in a biofilm are hidden from
predators, 500 times more resistant to antibiotics, and the film acts as a net
to catch food.

The Krib is always a good source of info...

 

[NowherMan6]

i know erythromycin would kill it, i just feel like it would kill everything else too. i'll see how the black out/ upping plant growth goes, and if that fails i'll try the drugs.

ive never really been a fan of the "nuke first, ask questions later" approach but i also know that sometimes it's the only way that will work, so we'll see how this goes.

 

[plantbrain]

EM is no better than a blackout and a blackout is free, no trip to the LFs required.

0.75$ a pill, come on, few places will sell single pills, most people do not use indiscriminate use of antibiotics and many "evolved" countries simply will not sell them without a prescription.

You don't need it and it does not grow plants, so why add it?
If it does not grow plants, don't add it.

I'm asking you for a decent arguement for EM and you have not offered one.

It needs to be better than free and easier than turning the lights off and present a long term solution which was long term plant health.

None of these arguements with EM meet these criteria, blackout does and unless you have actually tried both methods and done them fully, you will not know.

I know this method I came up with works. I can promise you I've dealth with and solved far more algal issues for folks in this hobby than most folks.

If EM was so good, I'd suggest it reluctantly, but I'm not.

There are much better effective methods that everyone can use(not just those with access to EM) that bring the focus back to plant health, not taking a pill for a cure.


Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[superjohnny]

Tom you don't seem to be very open to the other methods of erradication. I agree that medicating a tank is harsh and not necessary most of the time, but some of us have neither your expertise in botany & biology, nor your 20+ years of experience.

BGA is a bacteria and EM is an antibiotic. When you have an infection do you go with hot compresses, rest & the natural method or do you go to the doctor and get antibiotics? BGA is to an aquarium what a staff infection is to a human.

I believe you can buy Maracyn in a 5 pill pack for less than $4 so cost shouldn't be too much of an issue. Personally I like the ~20 minute drive to the LFS.

Bye the way, dropping two pills in the tank is certainly easier than un-plugging your light and wrapping your tank in blankets.

<edit> NowherMan6 by all means try to kill it naturally before you medicate. I agree that adding any kind of medication should be a last resort. I fought with BGA for about 3 months before using medication.

 

[Hydro]

Additional questions about the blackout procedure

Hi Plantbrain and others:

I'm also getting ready for a blackout. BGA has recently emerged and slowly spreading so I want to get rid of or at least control it before it takes over my tank.

A few questions about the blackout. I have Hagen CO2 going. Should I cut the CO2 during the black out? Second, I already dose KNO3 and nitrate is kept quite steady at 10. Does the recommendation for adding KNO3 before and after the blackout still applies (meaning should I be adding more KNO3 beyond my current dosage)? If yes, what NO3 level (in ppm) should I try to reach?

Here're some information of my setup if that helps. It's a 10g, 2x14w CF, heavily planted, Hagen CO2, pH 6.8, KH 4, GH 5, NO3 10, PO4 ~0.25 (I know PO4 is low in relation to NO3). I dose KNO3 ~2.5 ppm 2x/week and Flourish 1-1.5 ml 2x/week. All plants show good growth (except the cockscrew val which I think just needs more light). I'm also guessing that iron is a bit low because the new growth on my E. tenellus is a very light green. Some BGA are currently on the E. tenellus leaves and some are on the substrate near the front of the tank, but they look like they're spreading.

Should I try to balance the ferts first before the blackout (bump up PO4 and Fe a bit) or should I do the blackout and balance later?

Thanks in advance.

 

[plantbrain]

There is a good reason for not being open to the EM method and why I pound it into the ground.

You simply do not need it, folks have an adversion to it generally(meds in general), many places(not everyone on this or other list lives where antibiotics are available, might want to check other progressive places that do not allow it in their food supply, non presciption availability, don't take the entire presciption etc unlike the USA).

While this might be mute with the aquarium issue of BGA, there is a higher moral standard and this standard is very easily accomplished by doing a black out. Many are aware of this and is a good idea to teach these ideas to everyone.

So no one is out anything in doing a blackout vs EM.
It's not an inconveinence, actually EM is more of one.

BGA is a bacteria and EM is an antibiotic. When you have an infection do you go with hot compresses, rest & the natural method or do you go to the doctor and get antibiotics? BGA is to an aquarium what a staff infection is to a human.

That entire arguement for comparing EM to treat a for a human disease is out the window, the target here is BGA, not tuberculosis to a staph infection. Blackouts don't work on humans. Can you explain your logic here? My suggestion is specific and based on BGA in planted aquariums, not humans. Blackout are well proven and I've repeated this many times under controlled conditions. So have many others.

You suggest I am not very open yet you have not tried things methods yourself it seems(have you?). I know both sides of this issue.
Try it under controlled conditions and see for your self.

Then you'll know if it works or not.
Infect a tank on purpose. I have done this many times just figure out "why".
This would cost a fair amount if you use EM and have a larger tank.

Turning the lights out and tossing a cover over a tank is much easier than going to any LFS, even if you like going to the LFS. Just fess you like that, not suggesting it's truly "easier". I don't buy that arguement.

The other issue: I've done EM in the past. Yes, I've done both methods for some years .........and I've done them well and consistently.

The advice I give can be applied anywhere in the world, not everyone has small tanks, try calculating the cost for a 125-300gal tank for 5 days dosing.

Then since EM does NOT address the cause and the cure, wereas my advice actually does, I fail to see where this is a long term solution. The cost is free, you cannot beat that so you can justify till you are blue in the face but it still cost $ and it's not that cheap everywhere nor always easily available. I might keep peroxide in my house, but EM is not typically on my self. Most folks have trash bags,towels etc.

The spores from Oscillitoria will resettle back into your tank in roughly 30-45 days. Every sample of gravel I've looked at has had BGA. So it's just waiting to get going again. You got it in there. I can prove it also by looking at a sample of your gravel, I have it my tanks also, even after I treated with EM.
It's not growing because the plants are doing well, not because a lack of EM as you suggest. Your tank is far from sterile, spores land there all day long.

The only way to address things is to deal with the problem to begin with, a lack of NO3 for the plants.

Now has anyone else suggest a cause to BGA you know of and can show that adding KNO3 will allivate BGA oince you beat it back with a black out or EM?

How come none else suggest KNO3 that also suggest EM?

Then there's a bunch of mythologist that suggest Oscillitoria is a N2 fixer and that's why they do better, this is also incorrect. This genus only fixes with heterocyst

My expertise, education etc does not have a hill of beans to do with the ease of this blackout method.

Any hillbilly like myself can do this.
But folks ask "why" so I tell them.

Folks need to work through a myth and figure out why a certain alga blooms rather than finding things that kill it. You will find this approach to be far susperior to EM and algaicides in general.

No good plant person uses these things, they don't have to. And you cannot say a beginner cannot do it and does not have the skill etc, take a look at Jame's H's tank, he's been in the hobby 8 months and won the AGA contest.
So new folks that take advice can and can do it well.

Here's the basic method specific for BGA:
======================================

Clean what's there out first, pick and clean. Turn off CO2, increase surface turbulance slightly, do 50% water change, clean filters.

Add 1/4 teaspoon KNO3 per 25 gal of tank(stumpremover)
Add trash bag or towel/blanket etc. Make sure no light gets in.

Wait 3 days

Remove towels, add CO2 do another water change, add KNO3 back and thereafter aleast weekly if not 2-4x a week depending on light(high light will need more KNO3 etc).

Keep up on the plant's needs from thereafter(CO2, NO3, K, PO4, traces, GH).
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

No big science there. I'll say this, it's good the learn from experience as long as it's not your own.

Regards,
Tom Barr