How many low-light plants to replace a filter?

[Canuck]

If the filter is off half the day then the filter is not going to be the major source of biological filtration. I have a betta in a 2.5 gallon tank, no ammonia, no nitrite, no filter no plants. Nitrifying bacteria will also colonize gravel, decorations, and glass. As long as the food source (ammonia and nitrite), oxygen, and water are available, bacteria will develop. The excess capacity of filtering material becomes necessary when tanks are stocked to maximum. I've never understood why people believe that the filter is the major source of biological activity in a reasonably stocked tank. One reason I hear is that high oxygen level but the level of oxygen going through the filter is provided by tank water, the result is the same level of oxygen (excluding perhaps biowheel systems). More concentrated food level, I suppose this is possibly due to the mechanical properties of filters, but if they are effective mechanical filters then they are going to have to be cleaned regularly, to sustain flow. If they are cleaned regularly then they are not a good site for long term colonization. The other reason I hear is abundant surface area of filtering materials. Can't argue with that but do a little calculation on how much the surface area of your gravel is, There is more then enough surface for bacteria. In fact UGFs and RUGFs are very popular for this exact reason. I honestly can't understand the logic of why people believe the level of bacteria in a filter whould be higher then any where else in an established tank.

 

[Aqualung]

Bacterial colonies cannot survive more than an hour without water, so I'm sure one night in terms of survival of the filter colonies isn't going to happen.

The filter in question is internal, meaning it stays submerged underwater. I really doubt enough bacteria would be lost for it to even be an issue. Lack of oxygen would be more of a concern than the bacteria dying of starvation (or lack of water obviously, since they would be in the water). I turn my internal filter off at night and it stays cycled, so it would stand to reason that not much bacteria is being lost. The only way to know if it would work in this case is to try it and monitor the water parameters.

I'm sure the betta would appreciate the live plants (not to mention they make the tank look nice), but I don't think it's totally necessary to have live plants in the tank in order to maintain healthy water conditions.

 

[Watcher74]

I didn't mean they're never present at all. I thought that was obvious. What I meant was it's never able to be present for long because of the benificial bacteria. Otherwise, why would our tests show zero for ammonia when are tank is cycled? You cannot say that having a cycled tank exposes a fish to the same dangers as a non-cycled tank.

The ammonia and nitrite will always be present. The fish and any decaying food and waste will provide a relatively constant release of ammonia, an established colony of bactertia would eat it and produce a relatively constant release of nitrite.

I would not say that having a cycled tank exposes a fish to the same dangers as a non-cycled tank. I thought that was obvious. The build up of a relatively constant release of ammonia with nothing to dispose of it will raise it to a high level over time.

If it is a planted tank like the suggestions, and only one betta producing ammonia, you won't need any bacteria for ammonia disposal. So then he can turn off the filter all he wants.

Most of the time the reason the ones in the store are able to survive is because of the blue coloring added which is actually an ammonia and nitrite binding chemical.

I have viewed hundreds of betta cups in Virginia and Texas. About a dozen stores or so. I've only been around a couple years in this hobby. But I have yet to see any blue coloring. Odd.

There is a woman at work that has a small glass block on her desk. Maybe 1/3rd of a gallon. It has a small layer of gravel and 1 fake plant. Nothing else. It has been sitting on her desk since October of 2004. Same betta. If she changes out one half of that water every day of the week, she is removing 1 & 1/6th gallon of water with waste in it per week. But she doesn't work weekends. So she is actually missing 2 of those days. In a 10 gallon, if you change out 5 gallons per week with waste in it per week...

The longest I have ever heard anyone keep a betta was five years. Three years is the most common. Four years is heard from time to time.

My mother is suprised that my betta is still alive after only one year. She claims that she has never heard anyone keep one for so long. But she's not an aquarist. I have been seeing that same betta at work for a year and a half. I don't know how long that betta has been there before I started working there. He's active and quite pretty. Beautiful fins.

Also, now that I think of it. I cycled my 10 gallon with only my betta. I later added three cories one by one after a couple months. I tested every day for the first month. Never saw a cycle. Half of the water was changed out per week.

Yes, you're right... when it's on. But what kind of filtration does it provide when it's off? None.

What is the point, exactly? How much mechanical filtration is needed to tidy up a 10 gallon tank for a single betta? Not a lot of waste going on. The best time for mechanical filtration is right after a good clean up and water change, or maybe if the fish are overfed. If he does these things right before he turns off the filter before he hits the hay, I would agree that this is not the best idea. I personally very rarely use chemical filtration. Nor do many experienced aquarists. So who cares if it is turned off at night?

Yes, and the balance would be that the tank would go through a re-mini cycle and the biological filtration of the tank would no longer be provided by the filter since the bacterial colonies in the tank would grow from the death of the colonies in the filter.

Most of the bacteria do reside in the filter. But not all. Some will be present on the gravel, some on decorations, glass, etc.

To be safe he can simply turn the filter off one night, take out the media, and wash the mulm from the bacteria sponge into his tank. I do that with all new tanks and have never had one go through a cycle. Once you cycle one tank, you have everything you need to never experience it again. Bacteria reproduces so rapidly that even if you lost half of your bacteria you would not recycle. Ever notice how your ammonia will rise and rise and rise, then one day, you notice it has dropped just a tiny bit. Then the next day, there is no ammonia. That is how rapidly the bacteria reproduces.

Most bacteria reside in the filter because of the water flow. But if you did not use the filter you would have the same amount, just on the hard surfaces of the tank. If he only turned the filter on during the day, the vast majority of the bacteria would exist on the glass, gravel, and decorations.

Seems hard for filtered tank people to think of. But that glass box with the betta in it at work has no filter. And after at least a year and a half with a beautiful betta still flaring and waving those pretty fins...I'm pretty sure it is cycled.

 

[Aqualung]

Bacteria reproduces so rapidly that even if you lost half of your bacteria you would not recycle. Ever notice how your ammonia will rise and rise and rise, then one day, you notice it has dropped just a tiny bit. Then the next day, there is no ammonia. That is how rapidly the bacteria reproduces.

Most bacteria reside in the filter because of the water flow. But if you did not use the filter you would have the same amount, just on the hard surfaces of the tank. If he only turned the filter on during the day, the vast majority of the bacteria would exist on the glass, gravel, and decorations.

If you lost half of your bacteria I'm sure you would see a mini-cycle. Also, bacteria do not reproduce very rapidly (especially the "nitrite-eaters"). That is why cycling is a slow process.

In my bare fry tank, I can assure you that most of the bacteria is in fact in my filter and not on the glass. Granted I am doing water changes and removing uneaten food every day, but I gaurantee that tank is producing more ammonia than a lone betta would, due to the excessive feeding needed for the fry. Also, it's a ten gallon tank but I only keep about 6" of water in it which means I would see problems develop rather quickly if my filter were recycling. That's not the case, and my filter stays off for 8-9 hours every night.

 

[Watcher74]

Originally posted by Aqualung
Also, bacteria do not reproduce very rapidly (especially the "nitrite-eaters"). That is why cycling is a slow process.

The reason why the "ammonia eaters" appear to reproduce so much more rapidly than the "nitrite eaters" is that the ammonia consuming bacteria has already taken all the good areas in the filter or otherwise (area with the most water flow delivering ammonia and oxygenated water). "Nitrite eaters" have to settle for what is left over. No "virgin" unsettled territory to take advantage of with no competitors (I.E. ammonia eaters).

Try setting up a glass box of water and just adding nitrite. The cycling of nitrite happens just as fast as ammonia with no "ammonia eaters" already occupying the best areas.

Originally posted by Aqualung
Also, it's a ten gallon tank but I only keep about 6" of water in it which means I would see problems develop rather quickly if my filter were recycling. That's not the case, and my filter stays off for 8-9 hours every night.

That's because your filter does not need to house any "ammonia eating" or "nitrite eating" bacteria in it.

Originally posted by Watcher74
If he only turned the filter on during the day, the vast majority of the bacteria would exist on the glass, gravel, and decorations.

The vast majority of your fry tank bacteria exists on the glass, gravel, decorations, or whatever. Which is why you never see an observable ammonia/nitrite eating bacteria colony in your filter try to recycle or build back up. Your beneficial bacteria are not in your filter.

 

[z71silverado98]

i doubt the bacteria in your filter will die overnight as long as you keep the media wet. If you are concerned float your media in a meshbag inside the tank.

honestly 1 betta in a 10gal is excellent,Well done :clap: i remember seeing a post about 8 fish in a 1 gal.
as far as reducing ammonia spikes at night (which should be low to begin w/), feed your betta in the morning so filter has time to process any waste. and unless your betta is sick i doubt he will produce massive amounts otherwise.

as long as the plants are receiving light they will actively consume nutrients from the water when the lights go out they will slow on nutrient consumption and mainly focus on cellular respiration. as long as you keep to a weekly water change schedule, any live plants will suppliment your filtration greatly. 1/2 a gallon of java fern alone would make a tremendous difference. Get a piece of hornwort if you really want a nutrient sponge.

 

[Aqualung]

The vast majority of your fry tank bacteria exists on the glass, gravel, decorations, or whatever. Which is why you never see an observable ammonia/nitrite eating bacteria colony in your filter try to recycle or build back up. Your beneficial bacteria are not in your filter.

It is a bare tank with no gravel and decorations. I won't argue the point any more, but I am certain that the majority of bacteria is in fact in my filter and not on the glass.

 

[valleyvampiress]

The ammonia and nitrite will always be present. The fish and any decaying food and waste will provide a relatively constant release of ammonia, an established colony of bactertia would eat it and produce a relatively constant release of nitrite.

Yes, ammonia and nitrites will always be produced and be present for a short period of time in a cycled tank. The key element here though is, short period. When it is released, it will soon be consumed. Maybe there are mynute (sp) traces present on a continual bases, but not nearly as comparable to an uncyled tank.

I would not say that having a cycled tank exposes a fish to the same dangers as a non-cycled tank. I thought that was obvious. The build up of a relatively constant release of ammonia with nothing to dispose of it will raise it to a high level over time.

If you read the post of the original person I was responding to, you'll notice he mentioned the tank would eventually compensate for the lack of biological filtration provided by the filter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this would be a mini-cylcle. When I responded to that poster, this is what I had in mind when I mentioned the presence of ammonia/nitrites. By you responding that ammonia/nitrites are always present, to me it was if you were defending the person I responded to that it's ok to have ammonia in an uncycled or mini-cycled tank. I mentioned that having a cycled tank exposes fish to the same dangers ans an uncyled tank to you because I was trying to point out what seemed like a defense of the poster I responded to. I know this isn't what you meant. That's why I pointed it out, so that you could rephrase your answer. I'm not going to say, I thought that was obvious because it's getting ridiculous.

If it is a planted tank like the suggestions, and only one betta producing ammonia, you won't need any bacteria for ammonia disposal. So then he can turn off the filter all he wants.

That depends on how many plants there are, what type, how often the betta is fed, it's size, how much lighting there is for the plants, and how well their nutrient supply is.

I have viewed hundreds of betta cups in Virginia and Texas. About a dozen stores or so. I've only been around a couple years in this hobby. But I have yet to see any blue coloring. Odd.

Odd for you, not for me. I see it all the time. Mostly, the only other times I don't see it, is when a betta is housed in something bigger than what could be called a bowl.

There is a woman at work that has a small glass block on her desk. Maybe 1/3rd of a gallon. It has a small layer of gravel and 1 fake plant. Nothing else. It has been sitting on her desk since October of 2004. Same betta. If she changes out one half of that water every day of the week, she is removing 1 & 1/6th gallon of water with waste in it per week. But she doesn't work weekends. So she is actually missing 2 of those days. In a 10 gallon, if you change out 5 gallons per week with waste in it per week...

As long as both tanks in question are cycled, I do agree that it is the same thing if you change water every day, as compared to every week. I never disagreed with this. If the tanks aren't cyled however, I would disagree it's the same thing. Exposing a fish long term to ammonia/nitrites is definitely more dangerous than if they were exposed to it for a day.

The longest I have ever heard anyone keep a betta was five years. Three years is the most common. Four years is heard from time to time.

My mother is suprised that my betta is still alive after only one year. She claims that she has never heard anyone keep one for so long. But she's not an aquarist. I have been seeing that same betta at work for a year and a half. I don't know how long that betta has been there before I started working there. He's active and quite pretty. Beautiful fins.

Also, now that I think of it. I cycled my 10 gallon with only my betta. I later added three cories one by one after a couple months. I tested every day for the first month. Never saw a cycle. Half of the water was changed out per week.

That's all well and good, but I was referring to the bettas with the chemical added. There is a reason why they add the chemical to the water. It is to prevent the fish from dying.

What is the point, exactly? How much mechanical filtration is needed to tidy up a 10 gallon tank for a single betta? Not a lot of waste going on. The best time for mechanical filtration is right after a good clean up and water change, or maybe if the fish are overfed. If he does these things right before he turns off the filter before he hits the hay, I would agree that this is not the best idea. I personally very rarely use chemical filtration. Nor do many experienced aquarists. So who cares if it is turned off at night?

To be honest, I don't know how much chemical filtration is needed. So far, I haven't seen tests performed yet to compare one fish living with limited chemical filtration as opposed to a fish living with constant chemical filtration. When I consider whether something I do with my tank is a good idea or not, and there isn't much information on the subject, I look to mother nature to answer my question. That is after all what we're all striving to mimmick. And I can almost certainly say mother nature doesn't turn off filtration in the night. So in answer to your question, this is what my own personal answer would be.

Most of the bacteria do reside in the filter. But not all. Some will be present on the gravel, some on decorations, glass, etc.

To be safe he can simply turn the filter off one night, take out the media, and wash the mulm from the bacteria sponge into his tank. I do that with all new tanks and have never had one go through a cycle. Once you cycle one tank, you have everything you need to never experience it again. Bacteria reproduces so rapidly that even if you lost half of your bacteria you would not recycle. Ever notice how your ammonia will rise and rise and rise, then one day, you notice it has dropped just a tiny bit. Then the next day, there is no ammonia. That is how rapidly the bacteria reproduces.

Most bacteria reside in the filter because of the water flow. But if you did not use the filter you would have the same amount, just on the hard surfaces of the tank. If he only turned the filter on during the day, the vast majority of the bacteria would exist on the glass, gravel, and decorations.

Seems hard for filtered tank people to think of. But that glass box with the betta in it at work has no filter. And after at least a year and a half with a beautiful betta still flaring and waving those pretty fins...I'm pretty sure it is cycled.

I never said a tank couldn't be cycled without a filter. All I said was if you turned off the filter, the tank would either go through a complete re-cycle or a mini-cycle.

 

[Aqualung]

Let me ask a question and then I'm done with this thread. Have any of you ever lost power for a few hours? And if so, did you see a mini-cycle in your tanks? I have lost power for periods of time from 1 hour to about 36 hours, and have never seen any sign of my filters "recycling", even in my girlfriend's tank which only has fake plants.

 

[Watcher74]

Originally Posted by Valleyvampiress
because it's getting ridiculous.

I agree that this entire discussion is becoming ridiculous. No hard feelings, ok? :