Please specify the variables of which you speak and how the problems with them are exacerbated in a FO system as opposed to a reef system. Please be as specific as possible.
Keeping my Nitrate lower in my 220G fish only
- Thread starter z28sseater
- Start date
Namely the specific bacteria that do develop in the presence of added organic carbon, their metabolic byproducts, and their oxygen consumption--none of which are known. I can't see any of this being helped in FO systems where DO is usually already lower and where there may be a higher food input. I don't even support organic carbon use in reef systems, and it seems like a worse idea in FO systems.
I have a standard 24inch single strip flourescent light with a Power-glo bulb on it which would be 18,000K. Ive read they do good under anything really?? What you think?
You assume that the DO is lower in a FO than a reef. Upon what is that assumption based? Other than that what you appear to have done is to stated your opinion as an unsubstantiated fact. I'm seeing a pattern here. And I already know how you're going to answer. You'll say that FO systems are more likely to be skimmerless. While that may be the case you shouldn't have lumped all FO systems together. I understand that you have little to no experience with organic carbon beyond what you have read, but this is a case of bad logic as opposed to bad knowledge. Another pattern you've fallen into.
Hmm. This is interesting. Let's look at this one statement at a time.
And I'll say it again: I don't like organic carbon dosing because of the uknowns and side effects. Those include a) you have no clue what is going on in the system in terms of the bacterial population and what you are growing b) No one has been able to answer why higher alkalinity--something that is proven to be a good thing under normal circumstances--causes the serious issues it does under this system. And finally c) people tend to use it haphazardly and as a cure-all without considering what the potential consequences may be, which include the above. What is going on, besides the obvious, that many people have already noted (aka bacterial assimilation), and what major changes are occurring that you cannot necessarily see. Basing things on sight alone may prove to be even more dangerous in such situations. That is why I don't recommend it or use it myself. If you can definitively answer these questions, then I'd be happy to start using organic carbon dosing again, as well as recommending it. So until enough is done to find out what is going on, I won't be using it again. That isn't illogical at all. To me, the opposite is illogical.
That being said, please refrain from personal accusations in any case, as in your assumption above. As a reminder, you attack the argument, not the person behind the argument
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Testing. In the typical overstocked (relative to a reef system) FO system, it is usually lower. So is ORP. You are more than welcome to test yourself and confirm this under the aforementioned circumstances. Your FO systems may very well be different, but it is also a dangerous assumption to make. Unless the OP's tank is just like yours, then it shouldn't be done without monitoring oxygen.
Some is fact, some is opinion. Re-read my earlier statement.
Pleaes inform me.
Not all skimmers are always as effective at oxygenation as you give them credit for. One other issue is the amount of carbon dioxide, which skimmers equilibrate with the atmosphere--which in mny houses is high enough already.
Unless I am informed differently, lumping them together, unfortunately, is a safer option. You should never assume anything that could be a potential issue when you recommend something, because you do not know the tank and the OP may have forgotten an important detail.
Who's falling into assumptions or patterns? I have, in fact, dosed organic carbon in my reef years ago--well before the cuurent fad. It was on the recommendation of a friend who is/was an inorganic chemist to add acetic acid to kalkwasser. I had noted that Randy Holmes-Farley made an article on it soon thereafter. I also tried sugar after ceasing the vinegar addition to see if I could achieve roughly the same thing and tried both alternating for a few years. I did not like the results, in spite of the crystal clear water.
And I'll say it again: I don't like organic carbon dosing because of the uknowns and side effects. Those include a) you have no clue what is going on in the system in terms of the bacterial population and what you are growing b) No one has been able to answer why higher alkalinity--something that is proven to be a good thing under normal circumstances--causes the serious issues it does under this system. And finally c) people tend to use it haphazardly and as a cure-all without considering what the potential consequences may be, which include the above. What is going on, besides the obvious, that many people have already noted (aka bacterial assimilation), and what major changes are occurring that you cannot necessarily see. Basing things on sight alone may prove to be even more dangerous in such situations. That is why I don't recommend it or use it myself. If you can definitively answer these questions, then I'd be happy to start using organic carbon dosing again, as well as recommending it. So until enough is done to find out what is going on, I won't be using it again. That isn't illogical at all. To me, the opposite is illogical.
That being said, please refrain from personal accusations in any case, as in your assumption above. As a reminder, you attack the argument, not the person behind the argument
.
Just for posterity, I have been dosing vitamin C daily into my main reef tank for over 2 years, at a level of around 25ppm. I have only seen improvements all around, in my corals & fish--nitrate is always 0.
Vit C is one thing I have not tried. I just didn't like the results of other carbon dosing as in the above. Have you noted any of that, such as the alkalinity limitation, with vitamin c? What about ongoing costs?
You can purchase a 16oz bottle of buffered VC for about $15 (with shipping). I usually purchase 3 at a time & keep them refrigerated. I have an over 200pg thread at RC on this. You cannot overdose. My pH has remained at 8.3 the entire time. I have adjusted my alk dosing over time but still keep it around 8-9.
Here is the info I have put together:
Dosing Vitamin C Chart
Use this product:
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=-7152293197697039798
$5 0ff coupon code: LUL789 (always good for first purchase).
Keep refrigerated.
To figure out how much to use, decide if you want to simply improve coral growth, spread, and color. If so, then you should dose around 5 ppm twice daily. If you are having problems with coral or fish health, dose up to around 30 ppm twice daily.
Calculate the total net number of gallons in your tank (minus rocks, sand, etc). Enter that number here ______.
You will now need to do a little math. The amounts below are for 100 gallons of water so if you have 50 net gallons, cut the amounts shown below in half etc. No need to be exact--I usually round to the nearest 1/4 tsp.
Dosing amounts using Iherb product:
1/4 tsp=1112 mg.
For every 100 gallons:
5 ppm ----- 1892 mg VC
10 ppm ---- 3785 mg VC
15 ppm ---- 5677 mg VC
20 ppm ---- 7570 mg VC
25 ppm ---- 9462 mg VC
30 ppm ---- 11355 mg VC
After you have figured out how much you want to dose at each dosing, enter that number here _____. This is your dose to be used twice a day. Try for at least one dose being done during lights out, as VC absorbs better in the dark.
Notes:
*Be sure your pH and alk are within normal reef limits before starting. Adjust if needed. Monitor weekly.
*Shoot for a ppm of around 5 if only dosing for improved coral growth, coloration, and spread. Shoot for higher amounts up to 30 ppm if you are having melting zoas or closed zoas and look for the causes of your problems as you dose. Check for high nitrates, pests, zoa pox, predators, and unstable water conditions.
*Dose low amounts and increase the amount slowly over the course of a few days to a couple weeks.
*Do NOT dose at high levels (>10ppm), if you don’t have a skimmer! Especially on a nano tank.
* If you notice an algae bloom or increased skim on your glass then cut back by half until it disappears.
* Watch your skimmer, it will start to skim more.
* Dose the amount twice a day in a fast moving area of your sump or overflow. You may dilute the vitamin c in ro/di water for a minute then pour into my overflow. If adding to sump, try and add the vitamin c after filtration such as skimmers and reactors.
* If you have a question, ask here. I check VC threads daily.
* The instructions in this guide and throughout this thread are based on using pure Sodium Ascorbate, not vitamin c pills and other non-buffered forms of vitamin c.
Be sure to take some "before" pics!
Here is the info I have put together:
Dosing Vitamin C Chart
Use this product:
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=-7152293197697039798
$5 0ff coupon code: LUL789 (always good for first purchase).
Keep refrigerated.
To figure out how much to use, decide if you want to simply improve coral growth, spread, and color. If so, then you should dose around 5 ppm twice daily. If you are having problems with coral or fish health, dose up to around 30 ppm twice daily.
Calculate the total net number of gallons in your tank (minus rocks, sand, etc). Enter that number here ______.
You will now need to do a little math. The amounts below are for 100 gallons of water so if you have 50 net gallons, cut the amounts shown below in half etc. No need to be exact--I usually round to the nearest 1/4 tsp.
Dosing amounts using Iherb product:
1/4 tsp=1112 mg.
For every 100 gallons:
5 ppm ----- 1892 mg VC
10 ppm ---- 3785 mg VC
15 ppm ---- 5677 mg VC
20 ppm ---- 7570 mg VC
25 ppm ---- 9462 mg VC
30 ppm ---- 11355 mg VC
After you have figured out how much you want to dose at each dosing, enter that number here _____. This is your dose to be used twice a day. Try for at least one dose being done during lights out, as VC absorbs better in the dark.
Notes:
*Be sure your pH and alk are within normal reef limits before starting. Adjust if needed. Monitor weekly.
*Shoot for a ppm of around 5 if only dosing for improved coral growth, coloration, and spread. Shoot for higher amounts up to 30 ppm if you are having melting zoas or closed zoas and look for the causes of your problems as you dose. Check for high nitrates, pests, zoa pox, predators, and unstable water conditions.
*Dose low amounts and increase the amount slowly over the course of a few days to a couple weeks.
*Do NOT dose at high levels (>10ppm), if you don’t have a skimmer! Especially on a nano tank.
* If you notice an algae bloom or increased skim on your glass then cut back by half until it disappears.
* Watch your skimmer, it will start to skim more.
* Dose the amount twice a day in a fast moving area of your sump or overflow. You may dilute the vitamin c in ro/di water for a minute then pour into my overflow. If adding to sump, try and add the vitamin c after filtration such as skimmers and reactors.
* If you have a question, ask here. I check VC threads daily.
* The instructions in this guide and throughout this thread are based on using pure Sodium Ascorbate, not vitamin c pills and other non-buffered forms of vitamin c.
Be sure to take some "before" pics!
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Once again you are switching the premises of the debate. I asked you specifically why a FO system would have lower DO than a reef system and your answer is that skimmers don't oxygenate as well as I think. That evades the question without answering it. Do skimmers magically oxygenate reef tanks better than FOs or is there some other magical process which oxygenates a reef tank that doesn't occur in FO system?
You are overlooking several fundamental things. FO systems often have more fish stock than a reef and may be fed more heavily. Not all the time, but a good portion of the time. Second, most FO tanks don't have the same illumination and therefore won't be getting the same amount of light, meaning less oxygen available through photosynthesis. Again, in many cases, FO tanks will have less oxygen as a result. My reef supersaturates with respect to oxygen due to photosynthesis--a protein skimmer can't usually do that, but photosynthetic activity can. Sure, not every FO system will be under the same circumstances, but in most situations, you nor I don't know enough to decide that for the poster. Assuming the above issues don't apply can potentially cause more harm than good. I am glad your FO tank doesn't suffer from these issues, but many do. And, out of experience, most people do not even test their DO. You can't assume everyone's tank is just like yours, as that leads to trouble quickly.
That's the last I'm going to say on the matter here, as it is it seems to be drifting away from the intended purpose of this thread. If you'd like to discuss more, you are more than welcome to start a new thread or contact me via pm.
