Making substantial money in the hobby?

[Nepherael]

What a great post. It makes complete sense. I had feared the angels being so saturated with breeders but they're my favorite and they're what's in my show tank. I had an extra room I'm about to clear out and with the $1 per gallon sale going maybe I can get a little setup going on something whether it be my blue angels or something completely new

 

[platytudes]

That was a great post. Narwhal knows his stuff He was (is?) "in the biz" so he always has a lot of high quality input to give.

You might try making your own strain - like what would happen if black angels and blue angels bred? The results may be completely horrible, or they may look interesting from a hobbyists point of view (maybe not an association's).

Do you like swordtails? The wild caught ones look blue (kind of like blue angels) and would be easy to breed and rear. Montezuma swordtails, I believe they're called. I got a gorgeous one from SubRosa, looks a lot like this:

(not my pic, original is here http://farm1.static.flickr.com/192/485719744_9a884270fd.jpg)

 

[Nepherael]

Yeah I do like swords, just haven't gotten around to keeping them yet. I actually think they are really awesome (that is quite the tail in the pic you linked, I've never really seen them that long). That's an interesting idea too. I have a gold veil and 4 blues and I was kinda hoping for a blue pair and a gold/blue pair to see what they would look like.

Hmm, maybe I should think a little more about other fish I could try this with. I was only set on angels because that was my goal from the beginning but I've come a long way so it doesn't have to be. I have an extra 10g that I wanted to sustain a population of dwarf seahorses in (They don't live very long so I would try to sustain a colony in there. I have no idea what the demand could possibly be for them so I don't know what I would do with the extras. My lfs isn't interested at all) but maybe I could take that tank a different direction. I think swords would need a 20g minimum though right?

It's fun to think about my options here.

On a side note, have any of you worried about a fish's destination? Like if it would be cared for adequately? I see kids without fish tanks (I talked to a couple of them about ther fish and they either had no tank or one of the tiny ones that hold as much water as an 8oz glass) buying fish from the local big box a lot and I think they just leave them in the bag til they die. Kinda made me think a bit about where my stock might end up. Of course I would have to come to terms with that but it was just something I thought about

 

[platytudes]

I honestly don't think about it too much. It's just one of those things. I can see wanting your prized or treasured fish wanting to go to a good home (that's how I felt about my 6 year old S. eupterus, I gave him to go a guy with a 240 gallon tank, I wanted him to have a minimum of 100 gallons) but fry are a different story. If you worry too much about it, then you'll end up having a fish rescue not a side business

I would say swordtails need a minimum of a 36" tank myself, but that's only because they love to swim and they are very active. A 20 long might be ok for breeding. A tall tank like a 29 or 20 tall would be all wrong though, IMO.

Dwarf seahorses sound like they would be very difficult to keep. I definitely wouldn't cut my teeth on saltwater by keeping seahorses! They're very picky eaters, I believe. I wouldn't even think about trying to breed any saltwater fish for profit...fragging corals might be a different story, but you're pretty far from that point yet. You can see how the LFS does it (if they do) and maybe see if it's something you want to consider striving towards.

Maybe ask the LFS what fish they would like from you, and if any interest you, maybe keep those? I would say maybe try chili Endlers for your 10 gallon.

Do you like shrimp at all? Most of them are another low maintenance endeavor and my LFS is happy to take even cherry shrimp. (They've changed their tune quite a bit, 2 years ago it was "nah we only carry shrimp as feeders" whereas today they are happy to take any of my excess cherries...so you see, even a stubborn LFS can evolve!)

 

[Nepherael]

yeah I've had a passing interest in shrimp. There's a thread laying around here with a guy that posts all kinds of pics of all different kinds of shrimp he has. They're all very beautiful. I've spoken to the LFS about it on and off and they seem to only be interested in very cheap fish like my molly fry and guppy fry. I'm hoping to push them forward a little bit same as you did with yours, whether it's with a new type of LB (endlers maybe) or invert or something a little more rare. This other bit I'm looking into isn't necessarily for huge profit. Half of it is just to enjoy raising fry in a little more involved way with fish I know i like instead of just basic livebearers.

Yeah DSH are pretty rough. I did quite a bit of research on it (thanks to Greech for all his reference material) and they have some interesting requirements. nothing undoable as long as I cycle correctly and give 'em the right food but I still haven't done it yet probably because I'm more worried about the tank just completely failing.

 

[platytudes]

I just kept asking them if they wanted them every time I went in, so every couple of months. Usually to different people, who all said the same thing - nah, nobody will buy them. One day there was a FW shrimp article on the cover of one of the fish magazines they had for sale, I remember pointing it out and saying "See, people do want shrimp...not just as feeders..." and that seemed to open their eyes a little bit. When I told them they would be perfect inhabitants for some of their nanos that they sell, they practically laughed at me - no one's going to buy an $100 setup for a few shrimp! When the Fluval series came out, which caters to FW, that was the real turning point, I think...and now they have dwarf crayfish and cherry shrimp along with ghost shrimp

Next, I am trying to get them to stock assassin snails, but it's going to be another uphill battle...lol

 

[f1sleepy]

The keys to raising fish for profit are to raise fish that are high demand at young ages, moderately rare and not commonly found in lfs, and easily bred and raised. To reduce your overhead costs there are lots of club swaps and auctions found throughout the country and many may be close to driving distance for you. Table rents are cheap and you don't have to worry about shipping, or problems with payment. You may be able to sell fish only 3-4 times a year but when you do the cost is low and the exposure to customers is high. If you figure that it takes that long at least to raise a batch of fry you should have sellable fish to raise at any time.

Some species that I have worked with in the past and do well are BN plecos, Fancy guppies, Geophagus cichlids (just about any species but the larger and rarer ones do best), Endler's livebearers, Metriaclima demasoni, any kind of shrimp, and just about any Malawi Peacock or Utaka (sold in trios is best).

Fish to avoid are Malawi mbuna (with a few exceptions like Demasoni and Saulosi) as they are commonly available and easily bred, Angelfish (Market is saturated with breeders and the price is low), and Convicts (ultra saturated fish are hard to sell at any price).

Zebra plecos are an interesting conundrum. They don't spawn until they are about 3 years old, they only produce about 8-10 fry at a spawning, and are a year of growth to reach a sellable size. Wholesale price is about $150 a fish for a 1 year old fish and you won't get much more than that at swaps or auctions. They are fascinating to work with and it seems like you are getting a big payday when you sell them, but when you figure in all the money in food, energy, and time you put into them for the last 2-3 years it's really not much unless you are working with several pairs and get some kind of economy of scale. That's why this fish has been perennially high priced. They just can't be produced cheaply.

Good Luck,

Andy

PS. the 2012 ACA convention is coming up in about 2 weeks in Indianapolis and you should take the trip out to see how swaps and auctions (the auction is on Sunday) are done. You could find some new fish to work with and may be able to sell your angels in the auction.

Great information! That's kind of what I figured with the Zebra Plecos. I honestly would like to keep them for their beauty and my desire to breed them is more for fun and to offset my initial investment. I'd be more than happy to simply break even with them for the chance of keeping them and getting them to spawn at least once!

 

[kenjivaj]

I don't think about making substantial money in the hobby. I keep my fish as a hobby just for fun. You can never complete with LFS fish selection. Even LFS don't make money off the fishes. They make it off the pet equipments and pet food.

Here how I make more profit toward my fishes if I do sell. I raise live food to feed my own fish. This will cut the cost of raising the fish and allowing me to get more profit. I have daphnia and microworms for frys. Duckweed for my koi fish. I also have meal worm for bigger fishes. I try grindal worms and white worms. But I didn't like it. It took to much work and time to grow them.

I sell live food at home to paid for LFS food. I find that people don't really need fishes. Normal people only have 1 or 2 tanks at home. They are not looking to keep buying fishes for their tanks. But people will always need fish food. I am better off making a quick sale of a container of microworms, daphina and floating plants for $5. Than selling 5 fancy guppy for $5 or raising betta frys for 7 months and selling them at $5 each. Here in my town there are lots of betta and koi breeders. People are always looking for live fry food because LFS don't really carry them. If LFS carries live food. Then everyone will keep live food at home too and drive the LFS out of business.

At the end I don't really make a lot of money but I can maintain a budget to keep my fishes. It also keeps my old lady off my back for having tons of fish tanks with fishes.