My first discus

[shawnhu]

Aren't you guys being a bit harsh on someone that wants to get into the hobby of keeping Discus and is cautious as to how to proceed? Looks like he's trying one out to see if his water parameters are ok with Discus. He stated that he will be interested in getting more as to your advice, but that's not good enough, you guys need to diss his new pet as well? Pretty arrogant sounding if you ask me.

No doubt that some of you have given excellent advice, but let's focus on helping the OP keep his fish, because that's what he wishes. We all make mistakes in this hobby, some are more costly than others. Sometimes research is not the answer to everything in this hobby, as you will many times find conflicting research out there. I see nothing wrong with his approach, especially the fact that it may be a less than average fish, as some of you have stated. "It's better to have lived life once, than to have not lived at all." Please remember that the next time you folks decide to cull fish based on it's "quality".

iceman, it sounds to me that you have yourself a plan there, moving the fish as they grow larger. You vertainly have the tanks for it, just need to be in the right direction as to how to care for your fish. Despite what people say about water parameters for fish should be kept in, I believe that as long as your fish look healthy, eat healthy, and are active, then there should be nothing to worry about. Keep it up, and let us know your progress.

 

[bs6749]

Aren't you guys being a bit harsh on someone that wants to get into the hobby of keeping Discus and is cautious as to how to proceed? Looks like he's trying one out to see if his water parameters are ok with Discus. He stated that he will be interested in getting more as to your advice, but that's not good enough, you guys need to diss his new pet as well? Pretty arrogant sounding if you ask me.

No doubt that some of you have given excellent advice, but let's focus on helping the OP keep his fish, because that's what he wishes. We all make mistakes in this hobby, some are more costly than others. Sometimes research is not the answer to everything in this hobby, as you will many times find conflicting research out there. I see nothing wrong with his approach, especially the fact that it may be a less than average fish, as some of you have stated. "It's better to have lived life once, than to have not lived at all." Please remember that the next time you folks decide to cull fish based on it's "quality".

iceman, it sounds to me that you have yourself a plan there, moving the fish as they grow larger. You vertainly have the tanks for it, just need to be in the right direction as to how to care for your fish. Despite what people say about water parameters for fish should be kept in, I believe that as long as your fish look healthy, eat healthy, and are active, then there should be nothing to worry about. Keep it up, and let us know your progress.

Not being harsh, simply pointing out that there are proper and improper ways to start with discus keeping and this is an example of the latter. So you are saying that the OP is using this fish as a test fish to see if the water parameters are okay for discus. This same information could be obtained from common sense or with the help of test kits if water quality hasn't yet been established. Isn't it a well-known "fact" that discus need clean water change frequently? You say that it's better to have lived life than not to have lived at all and I'm wondering if this still applies to the fish that are being used as "guinea pigs" in this water test experiment.

You say that research isn't always the answer. Discus have been studied extensively for over 50 years. I'm certain that the "basics" of discus keeping have been determined over that long time spawn. If that weren't the case how do you explain all of the healthy fish out there and the frequent breeding of these fish in the hobby, including the massive industry in Asia where discus are thriving. Certainly an unhealthy fish is not going to spawn/breed. The truth is that the general requirements of these fish ARE known and it was a failure by the OP to look them up before giving this fish a try. Sure it was a mistake and it happens to all of us at one time or another, but don't tell him that he did nothing wrong when clearly he did, even though it was a mistake. It's a learning process and now maybe he has a better idea of what to purchase unless he's into small/weak/stunted/sick loooking fish.

 

[pinkertd]

I don't think we can undo what's been done. Taking the fish back is probably not what the LFS is going to do. And culling it because it's considered to be low quality is not the right answer either. Most of us can barely euthanize our sick fish when we know it's the right thing to do to end the fishes suffering. Just because the fish may be runted or stunted in no way indicates that it is in ill health and will jeopardize other fish. It's rushing to greet and eat. That's a good sign! I had a stunted discus at one time, a young red spotted green stunted at a very early age by the breeder. But he was fearless and totally endearing, beautifully colored and very bossy. Stunted discus can still make good wet pets.

From the postings, I don't think anything the OP has done has been done with malice, just not very well informed. And seems willing to learn. And some of the postings I think have been taken out of context. For example, OP posted: "But with discus my aim is not to max out the size", I think he meant that he's not worried if the fish he purchased doesn't turn into a huge discus....and not that he didn't want it to reach maximum size.

I do find it upsetting when someone slams a discus purchase and yells "cull". You'd actually be better off trying to stop the breeders from supplying the LFS with inferior fish so that hobbyists can't get hold of them.

We've advised the OP that the discus doesn't belong in a 15G. In one of the OP's first posts it was stated he wants to give the discus at least 15 gallons per fish and not 10 like is usually suggested. He stated he was concerned about stunting. Well, he did! I think there's some misinterpretation of things on the OP's part.

We advised that they are social and need to be kept in groups. The OP is now looking at placing the discus in a 50G.....so we're making at little progress here. Forward progress is always good!

 

[icemanx23]

Thanks shawnhu. That's what i have in mind. By expirement, i'm not meaning to put my fish in a tank and observe it survive or not. And i'm not meaning to test water parameter. What i want to know is discus behavior ( which aparrently differ for each individual) , how much they eat and maintainence requirement? So that i could plan further if i want to keep discus. Eye to body ratio also apply when i'm raising flowerhorn and when u need to decide the fish is stunted or not. I feed my flowerhorn 6 times a day with all he can eat in 30 sec and change water daily. But i don't want to do that to my discus and i'm considering 3 times a day and twice a week water change. My 50 is in the process of cycling. Since i decide to keep plants I clean my tank and i don't want to put my fish before the cycling is complete. I know getting one discus is cruel but i don't want to make expensive mistake like get 5 full grown discus which later die.

 

[icemanx23]

I don't think we can undo what's been done. Taking the fish back is probably not what the LFS is going to do. And culling it because it's considered to be low quality is not the right answer either. Most of us can barely euthanize our sick fish when we know it's the right thing to do to end the fishes suffering. Just because the fish may be runted or stunted in no way indicates that it is in ill health and will jeopardize other fish. It's rushing to greet and eat. That's a good sign! I had a stunted discus at one time, a young red spotted green stunted at a very early age by the breeder. But he was fearless and totally endearing, beautifully colored and very bossy. Stunted discus can still make good wet pets.

From the postings, I don't think anything the OP has done has been done with malice, just not very well informed. And seems willing to learn. And some of the postings I think have been taken out of context. For example, OP posted: "But with discus my aim is not to max out the size", I think he meant that he's not worried if the fish he purchased doesn't turn into a huge discus....and not that he didn't want it to reach maximum size.

I do find it upsetting when someone slams a discus purchase and yells "cull". You'd actually be better off trying to stop the breeders from supplying the LFS with inferior fish so that hobbyists can't get hold of them.

We've advised the OP that the discus doesn't belong in a 15G. In one of the OP's first posts it was stated he wants to give the discus at least 15 gallons per fish and not 10 like is usually suggested. He stated he was concerned about stunting. Well, he did! I think there's some misinterpretation of things on the OP's part.

We advised that they are social and need to be kept in groups. The OP is now looking at placing the discus in a 50G.....so we're making at little progress here. Forward progress is always good!

Thank u for understanding. I have no intention of culling my discus. I know Pet come with responsibility. It may be stunted but it's not fair to kill for that. Since my 50g has been cleansed and empty for a while I had to cycle it again. My original plan was to have plants but now i'm going for a barebottom. I'll keep some small 5-6 discus and then advance to 150 when they attain enough size like 5". In barebottom i think it'll be better to max out the size before they move into 150g.

 

[Star_Rider]

If you

Thanks shawnhu. That's what i have in mind. By expirement, i'm not meaning to put my fish in a tank and observe it survive or not. And i'm not meaning to test water parameter. What i want to know is discus behavior ( which aparrently differ for each individual) , how much they eat and maintainence requirement? So that i could plan further if i want to keep discus. Eye to body ratio also apply when i'm raising flowerhorn and when u need to decide the fish is stunted or not. I feed my flowerhorn 6 times a day with all he can eat in 30 sec and change water daily. But i don't want to do that to my discus and i'm considering 3 times a day and twice a week water change. My 50 is in the process of cycling. Since i decide to keep plants I clean my tank and i don't want to put my fish before the cycling is complete. I know getting one discus is cruel but i don't want to make expensive mistake like get 5 full grown discus which later die.

If you want to learn discus behavior .. then you must understand some basics. Discus are shoaling fish(schooling) and prefer the company of other discus. this is one point that has been pointed out. your experiment of behavior of a single discus will be flawed as the discus needs other discus to display proper behavior.

this is not to say you can't keep a single discus..but be aware it will not display normal Discus behavior.

while Discus benefit with large, frequent water changes.. much has changed over the generations ..they have adapted to less than optimal water.. I keep a shoal of 7 and contrary to popular belief.. I keep a wild P.Scalare in the tank with them. this tank only gets 2 40-50% water changes weekly and the discus thrive.

if you are keeping a lone discus in the15 and it is a QT..you are moving in the right direction as you move it to a larger tank. btw a 50 with 5 discus will be fine for quite some time.

 

[shawnhu]

Not being harsh, simply pointing out that there are proper and improper ways to start with discus keeping and this is an example of the latter. So you are saying that the OP is using this fish as a test fish to see if the water parameters are okay for discus. This same information could be obtained from common sense or with the help of test kits if water quality hasn't yet been established. Isn't it a well-known "fact" that discus need clean water change frequently? You say that it's better to have lived life than not to have lived at all and I'm wondering if this still applies to the fish that are being used as "guinea pigs" in this water test experiment.

You say that research isn't always the answer. Discus have been studied extensively for over 50 years. I'm certain that the "basics" of discus keeping have been determined over that long time spawn. If that weren't the case how do you explain all of the healthy fish out there and the frequent breeding of these fish in the hobby, including the massive industry in Asia where discus are thriving. Certainly an unhealthy fish is not going to spawn/breed. The truth is that the general requirements of these fish ARE known and it was a failure by the OP to look them up before giving this fish a try. Sure it was a mistake and it happens to all of us at one time or another, but don't tell him that he did nothing wrong when clearly he did, even though it was a mistake. It's a learning process and now maybe he has a better idea of what to purchase unless he's into small/weak/stunted/sick loooking fish.

What would be the "proper" way for someone conservative to start with Discus, and not risking losing an investment of 5 full grown Discus, of non-cull quality?

Sure, you can test for anything under the sun with test kits, and your water may still be unsuitable for Discus. The OP has placed this fish in a large enough tank, and plans to look into a better enviornment and better care for his new pet. This is something that is temporary and plans to move the fish. But wait, isn't that what most of us do anyway? Buy a fish/plant/invert, and QT it for a few weeks? Hmmm. I see 2 birds with one stone.

Stating that information can be derived from "common sense" is a bit confusing to me. How is one supposed to use "common sense" to produce information on Discus water parameters?

Call me a newbie, but I didn't know that it was a "fact" that Discus needed "clean water change frequently". I know that the fish requires high water quality. There are many ways to obtain high water quality. I know this from asking others, research, but would I risk an initial investment of 5+ high quality Discus to that research, no.

In regards to the "studies" and massive industry in Asia, I'd like to point out that there is no success without sacrifice and hardships. We all go through it in life, some more than others. Do you think that the massive industry in Asia does not face hardships? Another word for "studies" is experimenting. Do you not think that they lose fish all the time, due to quality issues? Those that do make it through transportation, may or may not end up in a good home before the LFS tortures the fish till it's death. Consider this one lucky to have found a good home, it's other fate would be death if it was up to some of you.

I'd like to continue helping the OP. Since I have no valuable information regarding Discus I can offer, I will offer my sympathy as a committed fish keeper, and try to keep the helpful information moving along. I am not interested in getting into any heated discussions as that is not my goal. As stated, I am not a Discus expert by any means, and still need the expert advice that is offered by many on these forums.

 

[bs6749]

while Discus benefit with large, frequent water changes.. much has changed over the generations ..they have adapted to less than optimal water.. I keep a shoal of 7 and contrary to popular belief.. I keep a wild P.Scalare in the tank with them. this tank only gets 2 40-50% water changes weekly and the discus thrive.

Discus really haven't adapted all that much to water conditions. Sure pH range is not as critical in domestics as it is in wilds, but ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are still harmful to these fish in the same levels they have been in the past.

Also, two 40-50% water changes is great for adult discus, especially ina planted tank, but juveniles should have at least 50% of the water changed daily in order to remove the growth inhibiting hormones that they secrete. Many breeders will change out 100% of the water at least 2 times per day, while some have a continual water change system. Discus should have 50% changed until they are about 5".

What would be the "proper" way for someone conservative to start with Discus, and not risking losing an investment of 5 full grown Discus, of non-cull quality?

The "proper way" to start with discus would be to purchase 6-8 JUVENILES that are 3" and not adults that are 3". These discus should be from a well known breeder or of nice stock. Typically you will pay $20-30 each for QUALITY fish this size. Grow these fish out together in a 55g until they are 4.5-5" doing all the necessary tank maintenance and feedings in the meantime.

Sure, you can test for anything under the sun with test kits, and your water may still be unsuitable for Discus. The OP has placed this fish in a large enough tank, and plans to look into a better enviornment and better care for his new pet. This is something that is temporary and plans to move the fish. But wait, isn't that what most of us do anyway? Buy a fish/plant/invert, and QT it for a few weeks? Hmmm. I see 2 birds with one stone.

I'm extremely confused by your lack of comprehension and reasoning. If you can test your water for the important factors/parameters and find them all to be in a reasonable range for discus, which shouldn't be extraordinarily different than keeping 95% of other freshwater fish, how can you say that the water may still be unsuitable for them? Is there some "magic" in the water that may affect these fish that the test kits aren't able to catch?

You say that the OP has put the fish in a large enough tank and also later claim that you are no discus expert, well if you had some BASIC knowledge of discus you'd know that the tank is NOT large enough for the fish. Also, doesn't QT'ing mean isolating new individuals BEFORE putting them into another tank? Hmmm, I think someone should go back and brush up on the basics of fishkeeping. He's already introduced the fish to the tank with other fish so it doesn't matter if he moves them now. Whatever the fish may have is already in the tank and can affect the other fish. Looks like instead of killing two birds with one stone you may kill your fish in the future with your methods seeing as you don't know the process that QT'ing involves.

Stating that information can be derived from "common sense" is a bit confusing to me. How is one supposed to use "common sense" to produce information on Discus water parameters?

Let me clear it up for you then. The nitrogen cycle. Ammonia > Nitrites > Nitrates. Nitrates are then removed from the water by plants, some organisms such as clams, or with growing out disucs water changes. If you've got the nitrogen cycle down then you're pretty much good to go. pH only plays a role with wilds and with breeding. Hardness (GH) is the same.

 

[shawnhu]

Discus really haven't adapted all that much to water conditions. Sure pH range is not as critical in domestics as it is in wilds, but ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are still harmful to these fish in the same levels they have been in the past.

What are these levels exactly?

Also, two 40-50% water changes is great for adult discus, especially ina planted tank, but juveniles should have at least 50% of the water changed daily in order to remove the growth inhibiting hormones that they secrete. Many breeders will change out 100% of the water at least 2 times per day, while some have a continual water change system. Discus should have 50% changed until they are about 5".



The "proper way" to start with discus would be to purchase 6-8 JUVENILES that are 3" and not adults that are 3". These discus should be from a well known breeder or of nice stock. Typically you will pay $20-30 each for QUALITY fish this size. Grow these fish out together in a 55g until they are 4.5-5" doing all the necessary tank maintenance and feedings in the meantime.

This is exactly my point. Isn't $240 a rather big risk and investment for a beginner all at once?

I'm extremely confused by your lack of comprehension and reasoning. If you can test your water for the important factors/parameters and find them all to be in a reasonable range for discus, which shouldn't be extraordinarily different than keeping 95% of other freshwater fish, how can you say that the water may still be unsuitable for them? Is there some "magic" in the water that may affect these fish that the test kits aren't able to catch?

Soap would be an example. The OP is proceeding cautiously, that's my reasoning. You may be right about the confusion part, however.

You say that the OP has put the fish in a large enough tank and also later claim that you are no discus expert, well if you had some BASIC knowledge of discus you'd know that the tank is NOT large enough for the fish. Also, doesn't QT'ing mean isolating new individuals BEFORE putting them into another tank? Hmmm, I think someone should go back and brush up on the basics of fishkeeping. He's already introduced the fish to the tank with other fish so it doesn't matter if he moves them now. Whatever the fish may have is already in the tank and can affect the other fish. Looks like instead of killing two birds with one stone you may kill your fish in the future with your methods seeing as you don't know the process that QT'ing involves.

The fish is 3" if I recall, and his tank is 15G. I don't see how that's not big enough for the fish. What would be a suitable size then?

In regards to QT, it's all up to the hobbyist how he wants to QT. My method of QT may not be the same as yours. Some QT new fish/plants/inverts with nothing else but water and meds. Others QT with water and salt. Yet some more, QT with plants to lighten stress on the fish. Who are you to say what's the right method for QT?

Let me clear it up for you then. The nitrogen cycle. Ammonia > Nitrites > Nitrates. Nitrates are then removed from the water by plants, some organisms such as clams, or with growing out disucs water changes. If you've got the nitrogen cycle down then you're pretty much good to go. pH only plays a role with wilds and with breeding. Hardness (GH) is the same.

Thanks for clearing that up. I hope this thread helps others in the future.

 

[Star_Rider]

Discus really haven't adapted all that much to water conditions. Sure pH range is not as critical in domestics as it is in wilds, but ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are still harmful to these fish in the same levels they have been in the past.

Also, two 40-50% water changes is great for adult discus, especially ina planted tank, but juveniles should have at least 50% of the water changed daily in order to remove the growth inhibiting hormones that they secrete. Many breeders will change out 100% of the water at least 2 times per day, while some have a continual water change system. Discus should have 50% changed until they are about 5".


actually, they have adapted quite well to the original conditions that wild discus are kept in. they have adjusted in leaps and bounds when you consider the number of generations that Domestics are now kept
with wilds.. the use of RO/DI water with proper buffers is used opposed to tap water domestic discus have adapted to. also they discus are not near as sensitive to nitrate levels as wilds are.. they are fine in nitrates in the 20-40 range.
pH is really not as critical as kh/gh levels or tds. we commonly use pH as a quick indicator of low tds/kh.
but consider that discus are in planted tanks that get doses of fertilizers and that brings to question what the effect would be on wilds in the same situation.


More commonly discus are kept in bare bottom tanks. Some literature points that smaller discus result, when kept in planted tanks.

As far as hormones secreted in the water...that is debatable with no real documentation to either support or contradict the idea.
in reality small water changes with up to 50 % daily is to optimize the conditions encouraging rapid growth.

In a nutshell, discus will require a bit more knowledge and enthusiasm for maintenance than many other tropical fish.
but with the proper effort and research is not an insurmountable task.