Need some clarification on a couple issues

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Ryan32185

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May 9, 2006
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Yes, I am using a water conditioner. Its funny how I have had better luck with my fish in the past when I did not know anything about water conditioning, amonia levels, cycling, etc. and I just put the fish in the tank when I got them. I guess its a learning process and it does help alot when I can ask you guys for help when its needed.

-Ryan
 

daveedka

Purple is the color of Royalty
Jan 30, 2004
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For any and hopefully all information you need try this article Cycling a tank

you are for the most part on the right track.
The water softener makes the water harder for your fish.
In human terms, "hard water" is water that is hard to get soap suds in. soft is the other kind. In fish terms hard water is water with High total dissolved solids (TDS).
Magnesium and Calcium are the two most prevalent ions in most natural water. they are also the two that counteract soap suds.
Water "softeners" exchange Ca and Mg for Sodium at roughly a 2:1 ratio, so the water that leaves your "softener" is twice as "Hard" in the sense that matters to your fish. Additionally the useful Ca and Mg has been exchanged for the less useful Sodium.
In other words, Find a spigot to get your water before it goes through the softener.
dave
 

Corax

Temporarily risen from the dead..
Nov 14, 2001
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That behavior indicates the fish are frightened and not comfortable. ANY ammonia and ANY nitrite is too much for a fish to be comfortable in. How much raw sewage can you tolerate before you become uncomfortable? Same situation, but they don't understand what's going on. That's why they hide. Any reddness on the gills? You can expect that soon from the ammonia burns.. You can help maintain their lives by doing those water changes, but you are removing the much needed fuel for the tank to cycle. Your very best bet is to return those fish and do a fishless cycle. Your tank will be much better off in the long run.

wannabe, you got that backwards. Ammonia is the more harmful toxin, followed by nitrite (which is still quite toxic, just not so bad as ammonia), which is followed by nitrate which is arguable. I've known of people with nitrate levels of >80ppm and they saw no problems. Nitrate can lead to HITH and HLLE in some fish, but others seem immune to it. I try to keep it <40 myself, just as a precaution. But I don't go on a mad dash if I see it go higher than 40ppm. You can do more harm trying to fix it than by just letting it get changed out with regular water changes.
 

ggrowney

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Apr 8, 2006
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Ryan32185 said:
Yes, I am using a water conditioner. Its funny how I have had better luck with my fish in the past when I did not know anything about water conditioning, amonia levels, cycling, etc. and I just put the fish in the tank when I got them. I guess its a learning process and it does help alot when I can ask you guys for help when its needed.

-Ryan
I am a sceptic similar to you. I have had several tanks as a kid without even knowing about cycling and just letting the water age. I kept a pair of gouramis for the better part of a year once without knowing any of this. I have been a little frustrated as well. I think there is a short run downside to encouraging the kind of bacterial growth needed for cycling (I experienced cloudiness for a long time - finally appears to be abating - YEAH!).

My theory is that an uncycled tank with small fish can be handled with standard carbon filtration for the most part. That said, there must be something to all this written material about the nitrogen cycle (there are too many smart people in the hobby to be wrong). I think it probably pays off in the long run and especially for situations with larger fish or larger bio-load situations.
 

daveedka

Purple is the color of Royalty
Jan 30, 2004
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Columbus, ohio
My theory is that an uncycled tank with small fish can be handled with standard carbon filtration for the most part. That said, there must be something to all this written material about the nitrogen cycle (there are too many smart people in the hobby to be wrong). I think it probably pays off in the long run and especially for situations with larger fish or larger bio-load situations.
In addition to the fact that carbon does not stay active for more than few days in most cases, Carbon does nothing whatsover for ammonia.
Ammonia cause permanent gill damage and subsequent scarring. nitrite cuases less permanent damage, but weakens fish significantly, opens the door for other complications, and can cause permanent brain and organ damage due to lack of oxygen during exposure.
Many of us kept fish in ignorance, How long did they live? How many times did a fish die prematurely with no Explanation? What was the water parrameters to begin with? Do they compare to water parrameters of modernized municiple treatment plants?

Compare Natural life spans to your experiences, in most cases a properly kept fish will exceed natural life spans in our tanks. In other words if your Oscar died before it was 10 years old, you should investigate a bit. If your Goldfish lived less than thirty, He died prematurely. The really knowledgable fish keepers have the same fish they had years ago for a reason. They never had to replace them.

If you owned a dog and fed it nothing but meat fat and kept it in the garage without cleaning it's entire life it would survive for many years, but no where near as long as it would survive if it had a good diet, exercise, and a clean environment.

Dave
 

Ryan32185

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May 9, 2006
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Well, I returned the fish so there wouldn't be any losses and am planning on starting over from scratch. I am going to look at the cycling article and make sure that this time I do it right. Thanks again!
 

Star_Rider

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Dec 21, 2005
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Ryan,
you can do a fish cycle if you want fish in the tank.

just make sure you use hardy fish..zebra danios work well for a fish cycle and most lfs will take them back if you don't want them anymore..I have 6 that have been used to cycle several tanks and they are still going strong.
 

daveedka

Purple is the color of Royalty
Jan 30, 2004
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Columbus, ohio
just make sure you use hardy fish..zebra danios work well for a fish cycle and most lfs will take them back if you don't want them anymore..I have 6 that have been used to cycle several tanks and they are still going strong.

So is the plan to keep using them until you find out how much gill damage it takes to slowly and painfully kill a danio, Or would it be better to permanently injure a fish and then give it back to the LFS so they can sell it to some poor customer who will not know why their Danios died prematurely when eveyone else's don't.

It's bad enough that people seem to think it's O.K. to unnecessarily harm a fish for no good reason. It's worse to suggest this type of behavior to others, and it's deplorable to Take a fish back to the LFS that you have purposefully injured and allow them to sell that fish to someone who does not know the difference. It's Really a bad sign that the FS would accept such fish being returned. take some responsibility, Either do the work to cycle without harming the fish, Have the patience to do a fishy cycle, or Keep quiet about inhumane methods so those trying to learn are not confused by the suggestion of such.

IMNSHO it is irresponsible to injure fish because someone doesn't want to be bothered to do a little work and get things right. There are plenty of ways to cycle a tank without being cruel, there is no good excuse for not using those methods.

dave
 

piznac

Registered Member
May 17, 2006
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A tank is gonna cycle wether you meant for it to or not (as soon as you add livestock). And you my friend are going thru that cycle. Bare with it and DO get a liguid test for Ammonia, nitrIte & nitrAte. And follow the instructions on the test EXACTLY. Dont worry about PH, only worry if it changes alot. Good luck and when I first got my 100gl,.. I went thru the same thing. I had no idea and my first cycle took 4 months and at least 15 fish later.

Now I just "seed" my new tanks from other my other tanks and I'm good to go.
 
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