Nitrogen Cycle Help

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FreshyFresh

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Vino, not trying to hijack jimmy's thread here, but it may have to do with your stocking level. I personally wouldn't keep 4 green tiger barbs in a 29. Other than that, your stocking isn't heavy. Do you vacuum the substrate ever? What type of filtration do you have? Any crud build-up in the filter? You could almost always make it work if you're willing to do large water changes. Anything 30g or less, I don't bother w/ anything less than 50% WWCs.
 

Byron Amazonas

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Vino, now that we know the nitrate is within the tank, we can consider the reason and how to fix it. I don't know what your fish stocking in this tank is (I see Joel mentioned barbs, perhaps he knows your fish from elsewhere, as I've not seen them mentioned in this thread), nor your feeding schedule. I'll offer some general observatins, and if this is "old news" I apologize but I have no idea as to your knowledge level.

Nitrate occurring within the aquarium (not coming with source water) can be caused by too many fish (involves specific species, numbers but also size as a single large fish will have more impact than many small fish), overfeeding, no live plants, and/or too infrequent water changes.

Live plants will help, but this is variable depending upon the plant species (some take up more nutrients than others), number of plants, and the fish stocking/feeding/water change factors too. You mention Wisteria and Anubias as the plants; Wisteria is a fast growing plant, so this is going to use more ammonia/ammonium than will Anubias which is slow growing. But plants alone will not do much if the system is otherwise un-balanced; plus there are other nutrients and adequate light needed to encourage plant growth.

Briefly on water changes. This is certainly the fastest way to eliminate nitrate, and I would increase your volume to 50% once weekly. Initially to get the nitrate down, more changes can be carried out; water changes do not hurt fish, so as long as your other parameters (GH, pH) are remaining stable, more water changes are fine. But with this is the issue of what is causing the nitrate. If your Wisteria is growing well, there is no reason to have nitrate above 5-10 ppm if the fish stocking is balanced and the fish are not being overfed. One feeding a day, missing a day here and there, is more than sufficient for mature fish (fry need more). When I know the fish stocking I might have more on this.

Is any sort of plant fertilizer being added, and if yes, which and how much? Some of these contain nitrate. We need to be aware of all possibles.

Byron.
 

Vino

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Jan 1, 2014
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Vino, now that we know the nitrate is within the tank, we can consider the reason and how to fix it. I don't know what your fish stocking in this tank is (I see Joel mentioned barbs, perhaps he knows your fish from elsewhere, as I've not seen them mentioned in this thread), nor your feeding schedule. I'll offer some general observatins, and if this is "old news" I apologize but I have no idea as to your knowledge level.

Nitrate occurring within the aquarium (not coming with source water) can be caused by too many fish (involves specific species, numbers but also size as a single large fish will have more impact than many small fish), overfeeding, no live plants, and/or too infrequent water changes.

Live plants will help, but this is variable depending upon the plant species (some take up more nutrients than others), number of plants, and the fish stocking/feeding/water change factors too. You mention Wisteria and Anubias as the plants; Wisteria is a fast growing plant, so this is going to use more ammonia/ammonium than will Anubias which is slow growing. But plants alone will not do much if the system is otherwise un-balanced; plus there are other nutrients and adequate light needed to encourage plant growth.

Briefly on water changes. This is certainly the fastest way to eliminate nitrate, and I would increase your volume to 50% once weekly. Initially to get the nitrate down, more changes can be carried out; water changes do not hurt fish, so as long as your other parameters (GH, pH) are remaining stable, more water changes are fine. But with this is the issue of what is causing the nitrate. If your Wisteria is growing well, there is no reason to have nitrate above 5-10 ppm if the fish stocking is balanced and the fish are not being overfed. One feeding a day, missing a day here and there, is more than sufficient for mature fish (fry need more). When I know the fish stocking I might have more on this.

Is any sort of plant fertilizer being added, and if yes, which and how much? Some of these contain nitrate. We need to be aware of all possibles.

Byron.
Ok, here's the skinny.

-29 gallon tank.

-Aqua-Clear 50 filter (just bought another 50 today, making two 50's for the tank)

-Anubias, and Wisteria for plants. I'd say the tank is 20% planted. This is a conservative guess. There are more wisteria than Anubias.

-Stock: 4 Green Tiger barbs, 5 neon Tetras, 2 otos, 1 Julii Cory (second largest fish at 2.5 inches), 1 Peppered Cory, 1 Dalmation Molly (largest fish at 3'ish inches- and he's a pig and a poop machine), 2 Nerite snails.

-Feeding: I feed once a day. Usually at 5pm. I feed a pinch of flakes, or a pinch of freeze dried blood worms. This is usually in conjunction with 1 small algae wafer for the Cory's.

-Lighting: 1 24" T8 Daylight @17w. Today I just purchased and installed a 24" T8 for plant growth. Replacing the other light. Fennix Fugeray Planted + en route. I leave my lights on 10 hrs a day.

-Ferts: This is where I may be screwing myself up. I've been off and on with them, as I am not sure if I need them. I usually add Excel per the directions on the bottle; daily or every other day. And Flourish once a week. Sometimes I neglect these, and sometimes I put them in on the regular. Im still trying to decide if they are necessary or not. I am trying to determine this by plant growth or looking for the onset of algae. No algae except for the smallest amount on the top leaves of my Anubias.

-Substrate vacuuming: I have Eco Complete sand. When I do my weekly water changes of 40%, I use the drain tube (air line hose) to suck up any surface debris. I by no means get it all. But I try to get the most pronounced stuff.

Thats about it. Anything else, just ask.

Thanks
 
Last edited:

Byron Amazonas

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Thanks for the detail, that helps us. First on the stocking, this is not what I would consider over the limit, and neither is your feeding. At this stage I would do several water changes, maybe 1/3 one day, and another 1/3 the next day, then 1/2 the next. This should lower the nitrate significantly. Test the nitrate daily before each of these changes, then maybe alternate days until the next water change. Stay with 1/2 the tank every week, unless this doesn't work.

As for cleaning the substrate, normally I don't as this is a prime source of nutrients, especially carbon for plants. The majority of CO2 in an aquarium comes from the decomposition of organics in the substrate, and removing these is only going to lessen the CO2 available for the plants. However, I do a surface clean in one or two of my tanks, simply because each tank is biologically unique and these need it not because of nitrate but one tank for some reason will periodically develop cyanobacteria, which is due to organics, so this seems to work. But in your case, initially anyway, I would do a substrate clean with the water changes but nothing too drastic. Open areas, and not digging down much.

Now to plant nutrients and fertilizers. First, I would not use Excel. This is a highly toxic chemical; Seachem call it "pentanedial," which is another name for glutaraldehyde. Used according to directions, it is said to be safe for fish, but it will kill some plants (Vallisneria, Anacharis and some others seem especially sensitive to this chemical). If it should be overdosed, it can kill all plants, bacteria and fish. It carries warnings on use from the government, not to get it on skin, breathe in fumes, etc. It is used in hospitals to disinfect, in embalming fluid, antifreeze, and to kill bacteria in ship ballasts, among other uses. I don't see the need to add this chemical to a fish tank. Though it can kill some algae, brush especially, but there are safer ways to deal with this.

I use Flourish Comprehensive once a week, and Flourish Trace once as well. I have very soft (near-zero GH) tap water, so everything has to be added. In two tanks I also use Equilibrium to raise the GH from zero to 4 or 5 dGH, solely because the larger Echinodorus will not have sufficient calcium and magnesium without and they die. The plants in the other tanks do fine without this.

Plant nutrients occur from fish foods and water changes. The GH of your tap water is something you should know, but I will assume it is likely not low if your Wisteria is managing. [Wisteria doesn't last for me, unless I add the Equilibrium.] Flourish Comprehensive once a week, after the water change, is not likely to cause any issues. There is very little nitrate in it, as it is intended to be a supplement, to simply add a balance of nutrients that may be missing otherwise. Seachem says the limited nitrate in Flourish will not add "nitrate" per say, so I wouldn't worry. However, it needs to be regular. Dose the tank at the level on the label just after the water change.

The enriched substrates like Flourite and Eco-complete ironically do not help plants much, at least not in my experience; you still need to use liquid fertilizers just the same. I had Flourite for two years, then replaced it with play sand and after a few months the plants are actually doing better. It is also sharp for substrate fish; I had to remove my corys from the Flourite tank as it damaged their mouths; over sand they have healed fine, though the barbels didn't grow back.

Algae. Anubias is prone to brush algae, because this plant likes shade. Floating plants would help here. And they have the added advantage of being heavy feeders, so they would take up even more ammonia/ammonium, thus further reducing nitrate.

Let me know if anything isn't clear, and keep us posted of progress. Nitrate of 5-10 ppm in a natural-method planted tank should be the max.
 

Vino

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Jan 1, 2014
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Thanks for the detail, that helps us. First on the stocking, this is not what I would consider over the limit, and neither is your feeding. At this stage I would do several water changes, maybe 1/3 one day, and another 1/3 the next day, then 1/2 the next. This should lower the nitrate significantly. Test the nitrate daily before each of these changes, then maybe alternate days until the next water change. Stay with 1/2 the tank every week, unless this doesn't work.

As for cleaning the substrate, normally I don't as this is a prime source of nutrients, especially carbon for plants. The majority of CO2 in an aquarium comes from the decomposition of organics in the substrate, and removing these is only going to lessen the CO2 available for the plants. However, I do a surface clean in one or two of my tanks, simply because each tank is biologically unique and these need it not because of nitrate but one tank for some reason will periodically develop cyanobacteria, which is due to organics, so this seems to work. But in your case, initially anyway, I would do a substrate clean with the water changes but nothing too drastic. Open areas, and not digging down much.

Now to plant nutrients and fertilizers. First, I would not use Excel. This is a highly toxic chemical; Seachem call it "pentanedial," which is another name for glutaraldehyde. Used according to directions, it is said to be safe for fish, but it will kill some plants (Vallisneria, Anacharis and some others seem especially sensitive to this chemical). If it should be overdosed, it can kill all plants, bacteria and fish. It carries warnings on use from the government, not to get it on skin, breathe in fumes, etc. It is used in hospitals to disinfect, in embalming fluid, antifreeze, and to kill bacteria in ship ballasts, among other uses. I don't see the need to add this chemical to a fish tank. Though it can kill some algae, brush especially, but there are safer ways to deal with this.

I use Flourish Comprehensive once a week, and Flourish Trace once as well. I have very soft (near-zero GH) tap water, so everything has to be added. In two tanks I also use Equilibrium to raise the GH from zero to 4 or 5 dGH, solely because the larger Echinodorus will not have sufficient calcium and magnesium without and they die. The plants in the other tanks do fine without this.

Plant nutrients occur from fish foods and water changes. The GH of your tap water is something you should know, but I will assume it is likely not low if your Wisteria is managing. [Wisteria doesn't last for me, unless I add the Equilibrium.] Flourish Comprehensive once a week, after the water change, is not likely to cause any issues. There is very little nitrate in it, as it is intended to be a supplement, to simply add a balance of nutrients that may be missing otherwise. Seachem says the limited nitrate in Flourish will not add "nitrate" per say, so I wouldn't worry. However, it needs to be regular. Dose the tank at the level on the label just after the water change.

The enriched substrates like Flourite and Eco-complete ironically do not help plants much, at least not in my experience; you still need to use liquid fertilizers just the same. I had Flourite for two years, then replaced it with play sand and after a few months the plants are actually doing better. It is also sharp for substrate fish; I had to remove my corys from the Flourite tank as it damaged their mouths; over sand they have healed fine, though the barbels didn't grow back.

Algae. Anubias is prone to brush algae, because this plant likes shade. Floating plants would help here. And they have the added advantage of being heavy feeders, so they would take up even more ammonia/ammonium, thus further reducing nitrate.

Let me know if anything isn't clear, and keep us posted of progress. Nitrate of 5-10 ppm in a natural-method planted tank should be the max.
I appreciate the advice. I will certainly follow this water change regimen to see if it works.

With regards to my substrate cleaning, I never dig in. I just get the surface poop etc. But I will leave that be from now on.

With regards to my GH. Its hard. I have pretty hard water here, and have a GH test to prove it. It doesn't seem to cause any problems with the fish, and I hope it doesn't hurt the plants. But I assume by what you said, the Wisteria like it.

With regards to the Excel. I only dosed this as I was under the impression that it was another form of carbon. A form that the plants turn into CO2. Is this correct? Would this still be discouraged once I have my new light (increasing things from low to low-medium)? Or should I '86' it altogether?

Any suggestions on floating plants? I hear that Duckweed is a nutrient sink, but that it can take over the tank and get stuck in filters etc. Is it worth it, or are there better alternatives?

Thanks again for the help.
 

Star_Rider

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Vino, Excel is used as a chemical version of CO2 it does have the effect mentioned by Byron but it is commonly used in planted tanks. (make sure you follow dosing and prescribed water changes) excel can also help reduce nuisance algae ( similar in how it my melt vals and anacharis)

that said you may not need the excel.
the wisteria may utilize it but it anubias won't require it.
 
Last edited:

Byron Amazonas

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Myself, I would not use the Excel. You don't need it. I have run fairly-heavily planted tanks for 20 years and never added any form of carbon/CO2. I have moderate light, and I stay with plants that manage with this. Photo attached is of my 70g, just to show I am not talking through my hat.

It was a very low GH that I was referring to, so no issues there. The Flourish Comprehensive should be all you need in the way of fertilizers.

Floating plants are ideal in all tanks. Aside from their incredible water quality properties, most of the fish we maintain do not appreciate bright light, so floating plants shade them and replicate the overhanging vegetation under which most forest fish live.

I like Water Sprite, Ceratopteris cornuta. Frogbit is another (not everyone has good luck with this one). Water Lettuce a third; there is a so-called "dwarf" water lettuce which is not a distinct species and in fact is the regular plant that just doesn't get large due to conditions. I have all of these. They are larger than duckweed, so they add some substance to the surface. Fish love their dangling root masses which collect microscopic foods. Many fish will readily spawn among floating plants.

Some stem plants do well left floating. Pennywort is an ideal one for this. It forms strands with larger leaves on the surface and dangling roots beneath.

Byron.

70g Apr 6-12.JPG
 

Vino

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Byron, I really appreciate the suggestions. Ill have to look into getting some Water Sprite. I like the look of that. And it seems like some would be useful in my 5 gal shimp/Betta tank, for the shrimp to hide in.

Any thoughts on a grass like plant for the bottom of my 29?
 

Vino

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Thanks, Jemi39. Ill check that one out as well.
 
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