Stocking My 90 Gallon Cichlid Tank

[Barbie]

The reason they are saying to avoid mixing those fish is because they have totally different social structuring. The africans are fighting for space and their territory, the south americans are fighting for dominance. Every time they leave the fight they both think they won and can't figure out why the other fish is not abiding by their "rules" so they get more pissed and the fight is on all over again.

You would be WAY happier in the long run stocking the tank with fish that will get along long term. I've never seen anyone keeping a breeding pair of jewels with other fish for very long. They are the best parents in the world, which equates to making the lives HELL of anything that can't get out of that glass box and get away. Red zebras don't pair bond, so if it is a male and a female he'll eventually chase her to death. In his world, if she enters his territory, she's ready to spawn. In that tank, she can't get out because you kept a lid on it so she's pretty much at his mercy and unable to "put out" nearly often enough to suit him.

I do have to disagree with one point. Clown loaches are not helpless and they do great in tanks with Africans with the same dietary needs. I don't recommend them to go with mbuna, but they do great with yellow labs and peacocks. I have some that are 7 years old in a 240 with Rainbows, green tiger barbs, and a few other fish in the wall of my store. People are amazed how much the clowns come out and swim around.

As to needing different water parameters, I personally think people worry too much about that. My tap water comes out at 7.8 and everything in the house and shop live in it. I acclimate them slowly, be sure there's never any ammonia present, and I have fish spawning constantly. There is always more than one way to get the results you want. Stability for the fish, IMO, is far more important than exactly matching the pH of the water they were caught in. With that said, I wouldn't dream of letting my pH get below 7.5 for my wild colony of moba frontosa, but my tank raised discus are doing just great in my tap water. I do have an RO unit that I regularly use for spawning my plecos, but IME, it's the fluctuation of the TDS, not the pH that works as a trigger.

Barbie

 

[BigFishKeeper]

Good Info Barbie!!! The africans would catch ick and spread dieases!

 

[soonerfan121]

I have seen tanks set up with both african cichlids and american but I am not sure how long they will coexist with each other. Right now I have a 125 set up that has mostly south american cichlids with the exception being a single male jewel. He has been in the tank with the other fish since I set up a cichlid tank, 3 years ago, and I have never had a problem with him being aggressive. He will defend his territory, but is not the primary aggressor. I would say that if the fish have been in a tank together without any problems for some time then they should be just fine. It might be helpful though to keep a hospital tank handy just in case. For a bottom feeder the common pleco is probably your best bet and yes cichlids do eat plants, they also like to dig in the gravel and some of them even rearrange the decor more to thier liking. I love my cichlids and wouldnt ever go back to just tropicals. They seem to have thier own personalities and just watching them is entertaining as well as relaxing. Hope this helps

 

[Coler]

Red zebras don't pair bond, so if it is a male and a female he'll eventually chase her to death. In his world, if she enters his territory, she's ready to spawn. In that tank, she can't get out because you kept a lid on it so she's pretty much at his mercy and unable to "put out" nearly often enough to suit him.

absolutely - zebras, like all mbuna, should be kept if keeping mixed gender in a ration of 1 male to at least 2 females, 3 would be better. I also agree that mixing Malawis/Tangs with SA and CA is definitely not reccomended albeit that, like all things, a certain amount of people who do it will get away with it, sometimes for a long time, given a big enough tank, starting them young and getting lucky with the fish.

I do have to disagree with one point. Clown loaches are not helpless and they do great in tanks with Africans with the same dietary needs. I don't recommend them to go with mbuna, but they do great with yellow labs and peacocks. I have some that are 7 years old in a 240 with Rainbows, green tiger barbs, and a few other fish in the wall of my store. People are amazed how much the clowns come out and swim around.

I don't personally have experience with clown loaches, but I know that there is a wide body of opinion to the effect that they should not be kept with Malawis. All I will say about the labs is that they are also Mbuna, albeit one of the less aggressive species; still a world of difference as compared to barbs, rainbows etc of course.

As to needing different water parameters, I personally think people worry too much about that.

I completely agree

Good Info Barbie!!! The africans would catch ick and spread dieases!

Well, I don't know that that's the point...Africans with SA/CA are likely to beat up on the non-rift lake cichlids, which is stressful and can of course bring on disease, but subject to size and fish personality it is likely the Africans who will winning those fights. Of coure, stressed and beaten fish are more vulnerable to onset of disease.

 

[Barbie]

Young clown loaches without proper places to hide with fish larger than them, I definitely wouldn't recommend. Clown loaches the same size as the cichlids they're being kept with or larger do just great. I currently have some 6" clown loaches with my moba frontosa for snail control. The tank is acrylic and I lived in fear of grabbing an MTS and scrubbing the tank with it. I thought they might stress the moba out, so I was pretty attentive to them for a few weeks after they were added. Now, the loaches actually make the moba more forward, as they'll rush over to feed and bring the nervous cichlids with them. There has NEVER been so much as a nipped fin in that tank. It IS a 190 gallon aquarium. Tank size definitely plays a big part in how many rules you get to break, IMO. Fish that could never coexist in a 90 gallon, have no problem in a tank twice that size and so on.

While labs and peacocks are also Malawi cichlids, I've always found they have much lower aggression levels than rock grazing mbuna that have that territorial imperative. It's all about having enough of each species to diffuse aggression and enough room for them to get away from each other.

Barbie

 

[Coler]

Even frontosa are a whole different realm of aggression, as large and quite shy, tanganyikans, to Mbuna, which include the labidochromis species, or labs. Both Mbuna and Aulonocara have the territorial imperative.

I'm sure a bigger tank would help but I can see how fronts will not bother the loaches, as they are really quite timid, whereas Mbuna, including labs, are more likely to go for them, and the loaches will simply have no answer if so.

 

[Barbie]

Have you ever seen the cheek spines on a clown loach? I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one. I can only relate my own personal experience in mixing the fish with no problem. Aulonocara and Labidochromis have a reproductive territorial imperative, but not the same one for defense of a feeding ground. Comparing them to algae grazing mbuna for aggression just isn't realistic, IME, or more people would attempt to mix them. Labidochromis caeruelus definitely fare badly when kept with Maylandia, Metriaclima, Pseudotropheus, or even Melanochromis. I've kept clowns with yellow labs and smaller peacocks for years in both maintenance tanks and tanks of customers, let alone my own and the displays. It's not just a simple one off. The clowns are never nipped or bullied and are easily able to maintain weight, IME. If you ever tried it, you would definitely see that clowns have no problem answering back when threatened!

Barbie

 

[helios99]

I would like to say a big thanks to veryone for sharing their valuable experience with me. Has helped me immensely. Just goes to show that if everyone were a little better informed through such helpful, this place would be a much better place for aquarium fish and consequently fish keepers.

Now onto my q's:

If I were to keep the Mbunas (zebras and s.w. socofolis) in the desired ratio 1:3 m/f, then how many exactly would you recommend me stocking the 90 gal with? Kaybee says 15-25 depending on variables, which variables exactly? and which other mbunas would be able to happily coexist with these 2 species in my tank?

And I were to decide on keeping the breeding pair of Jewels then what all would have to go? and what exactly can i keep with Jewels and how many?

Thank You Again!

 

[kay-bee]

....If I were to keep the Mbunas (zebras and s.w. socofolis) in the desired ratio 1:3 m/f, then how many exactly would you recommend me stocking the 90 gal with? Kaybee says 15-25 depending on variables, which variables exactly? and which other mbunas would be able to happily coexist with these 2 species in my tank?....

Variables include species compatibility, gender ratio, general and conspecific aggression level, quantity of mbuna's, and even lay out of the tank (quantity of hiding spots, breaks in line of sight, and even age of the initial fish, etc).

If stocking just the two species, you may want to go with 2m/6f to 3m/9f each (16-24 fish total). This may initially/potentially entail acquiring more than this and then removing (selling/trading/giving away) excess males as they reveal themselves (which may be the case if starting out with juvies as at that stage both genders are practically identical).

If planning to include additional species to this combination, you may want to go with just 2m/6f for both the red zebras and socolofi's. Both species are pretty much compatible with nearly every other mbuna species (I'll stop short of saying 'happily coexist' as I don't believe that phrase exists in the mbuna vocabulary.. :headshake2:

You could add a less aggressive species (pseudotropheus acei) to this mix but keep them in a larger group (a dozen),

...or you could go with smaller groups of various species (each from a different genus) in groups of 1m/3f each (4 red zebras, 4 snow white socolofi, 4 yellow labs, 4 afra's, 4 rusties).

Many options. What other mbuna species are you interested in?

 

[ibr3ak]

Labidochromis caeruelus definitely fare badly when kept with Maylandia, Metriaclima, Pseudotropheus, or even Melanochromis.

Not necessarily true, given the opportunity labs will beat up on a more aggressive fish, while a melanochromis can be the tamest one out of a bunch. Different fish have different personalities, and will continuously fight for dominance nomatter the aggression level.

Not too long ago my yellow lab owned the tank, while an auratus was always shy and reclusive (I eventually traded him in because he wasn't aggressive enough). These days my rusty (who should be in a same category as a yellow lab) is constantly trying to beat up on red zebra and trewavasae, who are at least twice his size.