Tank broke!!!!!!

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Jayhawk

AC Members
May 12, 2001
1,358
4
38
Lawrence, KS
Ummm - who the heck is Rex Grigg and upon what is he basing his facts? On that same page he states you can get by with less lighting on a 10 gallon because it's shorter than a 55. He contradicts himself, and an aquarium is NOT the same as sunlight over the tropics.

His figures appear not to take into account the depth of the water where the plants are growing in the tropics. Don't his high numbers for lumens in the tropics have to go down the 10-30 feet to reach the plants? I'd like to see where he obtained his facts and if they are based on lumens received at the bottom of the water not the top.

I'm not a scientist either, but I have had planted tanks for 20 years now and have grown plants in everything from high light levels of 5 wpg with CO2 to my current preferred level of 1.3 wpg with no CO2 added and plants simply requiring less light. The old WPG rule is just a rule - it can be bent and broken as much as you like, but it has served many long term plant folks well over the years. My books on aquarium plants list plants based upon WPG requirements (as well as nutrient, water temp, etc.), and they're right on the WPG recommendations about 90% of the time which is quite a good rate.

If this 5 gallon were set up with two 23 watt bulbs in a tight little incandescent hood we would simply have a fire hazard. That a lot of heat in plastic not designed to handle that kind of wattage over an acrylic tank which is also plastic. I used two 23 watt (or were they 27?) compact fluorescent bulbs over a 29 gallon tank using a modified plastic hood (ventilation holes doubled, fan added). Without the fan, it ran so hot the plastic from the incandescent hood went soft in a few places. Also, without CO2 and nutrient dosing his plants will die off because they'll outgrow the resources they need to survive.

Edit: One more comment. Anyone other than me try using the exact same WPG on a 20 long and a 29 gallon tank? I did, and I had to increase my wattage to keep the same plants healthy. 20 longs and 29 gallon tanks have the exact same footprint but the 29 is about 6 inches deeper.

Eric
 
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Aislinn

AC Members
Apr 8, 2007
355
0
0
Minnesota
I've never seen a 5 gallon incandescent hood that fits more than one bulb, and I've also never seen one rated higher than 25 watts that wasn't custom built. Make sure you're not putting a higher watt bulb in the hood than what it's rated for. Fishies don't like electrical fires.
 

Sammie7

Get funky wit it!
May 28, 2006
1,284
0
36
Florida
Ummm - who the heck is Rex Grigg and upon what is he basing his facts? On that same page he states you can get by with less lighting on a 10 gallon because it's shorter than a 55. He contradicts himself, and an aquarium is NOT the same as sunlight over the tropics.

His figures appear not to take into account the depth of the water where the plants are growing in the tropics. Don't his high numbers for lumens in the tropics have to go down the 10-30 feet to reach the plants? I'd like to see where he obtained his facts and if they are based on lumens received at the bottom of the water not the top.

I'm not a scientist either, but I have had planted tanks for 20 years now and have grown plants in everything from high light levels of 5 wpg with CO2 to my current preferred level of 1.3 wpg with no CO2 added and plants simply requiring less light. The old WPG rule is just a rule - it can be bent and broken as much as you like, but it has served many long term plant folks well over the years. My books on aquarium plants list plants based upon WPG requirements (as well as nutrient, water temp, etc.), and they're right on the WPG recommendations about 90% of the time which is quite a good rate.

If this 5 gallon were set up with two 23 watt bulbs in a tight little incandescent hood we would simply have a fire hazard. That a lot of heat in plastic not designed to handle that kind of wattage over an acrylic tank which is also plastic. I used two 23 watt (or were they 27?) compact fluorescent bulbs over a 29 gallon tank using a modified plastic hood (ventilation holes doubled, fan added). Without the fan, it ran so hot the plastic from the incandescent hood went soft in a few places. Also, without CO2 and nutrient dosing his plants will die off because they'll outgrow the resources they need to survive.

Edit: One more comment. Anyone other than me try using the exact same WPG on a 20 long and a 29 gallon tank? I did, and I had to increase my wattage to keep the same plants healthy. 20 longs and 29 gallon tanks have the exact same footprint but the 29 is about 6 inches deeper.

Eric
All righty then Jayhawk, if you want to know more about it then you can ask Rex Grigg himself. He does come to these boards. Oh yes, I never said for the OP to use two 23 watt bulbs. I said to have the WPG be around 2-3 watts. Is two 23 watt bulbs over an 5 gallon 2-3 watts per gallon? Hmmmm.:dance2:
I'm not really trying to argue with you about this, but if you want to know more about Rex Grigg you can simply drop him a PM, and I'm sure he can explain his reasoning better than I can.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/member.php?u=62535

Even without believing the other things he says, you can find some reasoning in the Minimum Light Threshold, right?
 
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Jayhawk

AC Members
May 12, 2001
1,358
4
38
Lawrence, KS
Well, two 23 watt bulbs over 5 gallons is 9 watts per gallon. That'd probably be grand in a reef tank (don't really know though since I've never done reef), but 5 WPG with CO2 creates a non-stop jungle of growth - really much more than I wanted to handle.

What does the warning inside your 5 gallon hood say on watt size? 10 watt maximum? 15? 20? Those incandescent hoods, especially on the smaller tanks, rarely take more than 15 or 20 watts. The base of a CF screw in bulb gets very hot - most state to not use in an enclosed fixture. I'll go back to the fire hazard issue again because I think that's really, really important. I still think a two 23 watt bulbs, or even one, on an unmodified incandescent hood is asking for a fire.

You yourself only have 2 WPG running on your 5 gallon tank which I think is fine, especially since you have CO2 running.

No matter what you think, I'm not trying to say I know more than Rex Grigg, but I'm also not throwing up a website, providing data as facts, and not giving reference to where they came from. He gives a lot of good advice on his site, but I simply do not agree with his logic on the lighting page. Based upon his "about me" page and the information on the site, his expertise level seems like that of a very good aquarium keeper with years of experience. There's lots of us with those same credentials. I respect such knowledge, but I'll never blindly agree with it simply because it's on a webpage.

All I am doing, apart from the fire warning, is offer advice based upon my experience. My observed experience which anyone can try to replicate and see if it is true (I like the scientific method simply for that reason). Based upon that - it's entirely valid for me to state I needed to increase my WPG when putting the same light fixture above a 29 gallon as compared to the 20 long it was on...and the only difference between tank sizes is the depth of the water. The taller tank needed more light to keep plant growth at the same level.

On the non-aquarium side - I also grow sub-tropical bonsai and my wife has quite a few plants that we move in for the winter. We use a 48" double bulb shop light with daylight spectrum bulbs to keep the plants growing over the winter. We've been moving this load of plants in and out every year for 9 years running. Clearly, the plants do better when the light is 23 inches above the table they are on than 53 inches or even 40 inches. By Better, I mean increased growth, less leaf loss, and for some of my bonsai - growth of airborne roots (which is really cool).

Eric
 
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UCF-Planted

AC Members
Apr 20, 2007
321
0
0
Orlando, FL
Fishies don't like electrical fires.
My planted tank currently lives at my office. Somebody left this taped to the tank one day, and this reminded me of it (Hope I don't get in trouble with anybody for copyright infringement).

Fish-Farside-Sm.jpg
 

Sammie7

Get funky wit it!
May 28, 2006
1,284
0
36
Florida
That's good stuff UCF.:laugh:

Jayhawk, I don't have CO2 running on my 5 and I don't use any carbon alternative, such as Excel. Again, I did not say CC should use the 2 23 watt bulbs, only the bulb wattage that would get the tank up to 2-3 watts per gallon. I do know that CF can get hot, but I don't know they get as hot as incandescents. :huh: Those warnings inside the hood are rated for incandescent lights, not fluorescents. Incandescents use most of their energy creating heat, and they are more inefficient than fluorescent bulbs. But, yes, better safe than sorry. :rolleyes:

Again, how well the plants will do depends on the plants and their light requirements.
 

will74

AC Members
Mar 4, 2007
262
0
0
50
Kentucky
broken tank

Id go for the ten gallon tank at wal-mart. I have several and for thirty bucks you can't beat it.
 

spirals

i will eat you in your sleep
Also it just depends on the company who creates the tanks. Often the smaller tanks (at least in Petsmart) are made by Eclipse or there is the 5G Aquascene tank. These are generally acrylic and have specially formed bodies (even the "basic" 5G Aquascene still has 5 sides and thus a specially shaped hood.) In contrast the 10G tanks are glass and just a pure rectangle, the hoods don't have to be specially made and are easily replaced. They are also from a different company (Perfecto) so that may have something to do with it as well. But yeah, it is rather silly that a 2G tank costs $24 while a 10g tank costs $10.
 

Jayhawk

AC Members
May 12, 2001
1,358
4
38
Lawrence, KS
Sammie7 - we're agreeing on more and more as we go! I agree 2-3 WPG wouldn't be too much for a 5 gallon tank. Sorry I misread your profile and thought the CO2 was on your 5 instead of your 10 (where it is, right?).

The bulb of an incandescent is definitely hotter than the bulb of a CF, but the base of the CF is hot...really hot if it's a bigger bulb. It was right above the base area, on both sides, where the black plastic hood became soft on my self-rigged set-up...you could push into it with a finger. Many plastics melt or become soft at lower temps than you'd expect.

I'm guessing you've never known anyone who had their house burn down otherwise those sarcastic rolly eyes wouldn't have appeared on the better safe than sorry comment. A man I supervise had his house burn to the ground about a month ago - he lost everything. 10 year old house, cause officially unknown, but they suspect something electrical as the likely cause. I've also known of a friend whose barn burned to the ground - 8 horses killed...cause was believed to be electrical in nature again.

Eric
 
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