Water Quality Issues

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Trillium1000

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Dec 18, 2023
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Hello,
I have a 75 gallon tank with a fluval canister filter. 5 Geos, a panda, 3 angels, 2 albino altums, and 10 discus.... Some of the discus are slowing losing color and dying. I've lost four in the last few months. I think I've been doing everything right by feeding a varied diet once a day and doing 50% water changes once a week. I keep the tank at 82 degrees and test for Nitrate/Nitrite/Ammonia every so often. For water changes I have been using a python to hose in 82 degree water after treating with Prime for the chlorine and ammonia.

Recently I've discovered the ammonia in my DC tap water and had some sent out for testing. I'm waiting for the results but in the meantime ordered 20 gallons of RO water to be delivered.

Has anyone else done something simple to fix crappy municipal tap water? Ordering 20 gallons a week is almost $100 and not really a long term solution for me. I'm considering putting in a filter into my entire house but do that with the hot and cold water is exponentially more complicated. What do the rest of you do about the tap water or treating the water? I'm convinced that there is SOMETHING in my water that is killing these very sensitive discus.

Thanks for your comments :)
IMG_4721.JPG
 

FJB

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Jun 7, 2019
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More info is needed in order to give you truly useful feedback.
But I would say this and from the out start I apologize because it is going to sound blunt. However, you need to realize what is going on, and there is no way of sugarcoating it - You have way too many large fish in too small a tank (75g). In other words, your tank is way overstocked, and I don't think 50% water changes once a week is enough in your circumstances. I would be doing at least twice as much (no less than 50% twice a week), probably more.

You need to know the level of ammonia in your tap water (if any), and in the tank at all times until your tank is back on track, because any ammonia level different than zero can be lethal. If your tap water comes with some ammonia, you should treat it in containers (such as drums) prior to use it in water changes. RO water is going to be expensive.
How exactly do you do your water changes and service your filter? A single Fluval canister (what type and size?) may be insufficient. In the photo, the aquarium looks suspiciously pristine (the sand, the water). The sand looks as if it is brand new. It does not look like a living ecosystem. Something is not right.

Your Geos look very nice. Your angels look nice too, but none of them are altums; they are domestic varieties of S. scalare. Your discus (I can only see 4) look emaciated (very skinny), and not healthy. I believe water changes are insufficient for them, and probably they are being outcompeted for food by the other fish. Both angels and geos are much more assertive than the discus, and all of them are forced to live in too small a space. The discus are getting the short stick in the deal.
Again I am sorry but you need to know this to improve the health of your fish and enjoy your tank. Good luck.
[Caveat- I realize others may not agree with my assessment, but that is what I believe, and offer it to you in honesty].
 

Trillium1000

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Dec 18, 2023
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Hi, thanks for the reply. So here are a few bits more information that might be helpful to the situation:

- The photo is a closeup and not the entire tank. The altums are not in the frame
- I've had the tank for over a year
- the ammonia in my tap is between 0.0 and 2.0. The DC Municipal Water tolerance for potable water is 4.0 and under. So, that's a problem for fish, obviously. I'm OBVIOUSLY treating the tap water. I test the ammonia in the tank and it's ZERO all the time.
- It looks prestine because the fluval is very powerful (with the spray bar) for this size tank. It's the FX6 and as you are well aware, discus need pristine water. I clean it myself every 2/3 months.
- The discus are definitely not healthy. Absolutely that is what I'm trying to solve for.... and I watch every feeding. You are spot on that the geos are more aggressive for food, but I watch to see that every discus gets food. They all charge for food and get it when they need it. However some of the discus stop eating, lose color.
- Well aware that ammonia is lethal that's why I ordered filtered water, and that's why I'm posting the thread LOL. THe problem with buying RO water is heating it. It takes a long time to heat 20 gallons to 82 degrees.
- RIght now I'm not doing more than 50% water changes because I don't want to kill off the good bacteria. Tomorrow I'll do 50% with the RO and see how they fare

Did I answer all of the unknowns?

Thanks again!
 

dougall

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Mar 29, 2005
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There are at least 3 organized clubs in the DC Metro area (CCA, PVAS and GWAPA) I would assume some their members have experience that could help you. I assume they either deal with the same problem or it's not just ammonia in the water.

Also note that water treated with chloramine, treated with prime, will show a reading for Ammonia with the API (and other) test... They will also include ammonium in that count, which should not be a problem .

Hope that helps.
 

NoodleCats

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Have you considered investing in an RO system within your own household? You filter it into a reservoir barrel, which you can use a heater for to keep it at the desired temperature, and when you change the water, you use a pump from the barrel of RO to refill your tank with that water. Prepare it ahead of time, and you will need to remineralize it back to the GH and pH necessary for your stock choices (which won't be too bad considering they're all softwater fish and should be kept in acidic conditions for best health)

It would be cheaper long run to fork out the initial cost on the RO system than to buy large amounts of RO from other sources.

That said, are your discus eating and still skinny or do they go skinny after eating? Parasites is something to consider as well.
 
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Trillium1000

AC Members
Dec 18, 2023
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There are at least 3 organized clubs in the DC Metro area (CCA, PVAS and GWAPA) I would assume some their members have experience that could help you. I assume they either deal with the same problem or it's not just ammonia in the water.

Also note that water treated with chloramine, treated with prime, will show a reading for Ammonia with the API (and other) test... They will also include ammonium in that count, which should not be a problem .

Hope that helps.
Thanks so much!
 

Trillium1000

AC Members
Dec 18, 2023
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Have you considered investing in an RO system within your own household? You filter it into a reservoir barrel, which you can use a heater for to keep it at the desired temperature, and when you change the water, you use a pump from the barrel of RO to refill your tank with that water. Prepare it ahead of time, and you will need to remineralize it back to the GH and pH necessary for your stock choices (which won't be too bad considering they're all softwater fish and should be kept in acidic conditions for best health)

It would be cheaper long run to fork out the initial cost on the RO system than to buy large amounts of RO from other sources.

That said, are your discus eating and still skinny or do they go skinny after eating? Parasites is something to consider as well.
Hi, yes. I've had a plumber come and look at my house to install a filtration system into both hot and cold water. I mentioned that in the post but didn't get into specifics. I'm not interested in putting an RO filter on my whole house -- and I don't have the space for RO to fill into a canister inside. We live in DC, no garage, etc. very limited space options. Right now the RO delivery into a barrel to heat up will be the temporary solution. I've discovered I can have 20 gallons for $17 a week. That's much better than my original quote of $75 or so a week. It's just a lot more steps than simply filling up the tank with my hose.

My discus are indeed eating. Here's another factor... I was feeding them 2-3 cubes of beef heart a day but realized it was too fatty. I stopped that altogether and switched to flakes, bloodworms, pellets, brine shrimp, and granules. I change it up for variety. Now I feed once a day and a much smaller amount. I'm still not convinced I have the correct amount of food.
 
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A few things.

First, you reported very few accurate parameter readings for either your tap or tank. I saw 82F for water temp and 0-2ppm for ammonia in the tap. But what are the tank parameters and the rest of those for the tapas well: pH, GH, KH.

I keep true altum angels. To my knowledge there are not albino altums. What you have are albino Peruvian "altum" which is not a Pterophyllum altum it is a Pterophyllum scalare.

I have also had a 3 stage RO/DI unit form a number of years. I am space constrained and I use a portable unit. I got it specifically to deal with wild altums angels. I also just replaced it with a 4 stage unit. I have excellent well water Over the 23 years I have kept fish it has had a pH between 7.0 and 7.4. But is also contains excess CO2 when it come from the tap. So, before it is out-gassed, the pH reads in the low 6s. Over the years the TDS has been as low as 55 ppm and as high as about 110 ppm. Think KH between 2° and 5° and GH between 3° and 6°. The numbers change depending on the frequency and quantity of rain and snow in any given season.

Here is where I bought my units and they are portable. I have a sink with the faucet adapted to allow a graden hose size connector to screw into it. My units come with a compatible connector. I put the output of it into a 20 Gal. Rubbermaid/ I store 20 gals. in 1 gal jugs. and another 24 gals in bigger containers. I batch the changing water in a Rubbermaid next to the tank and use the same monitor probes in the can to allow me to batch changing water at the parameters need for any given water change. I usually target a pH 6.0 and a TDS under 70 ppm for the tank and adjust the changing water to be where I need them for that.


My original 3 stage RO/DI cost me about $125 + shipping. Today is is a bit more. I just did my first run with the 4 stage unit (cost $159): sediment-->carbon-->RO-->DI. It makes pure water. I do not remineralize, I mix my changing water at 11/9 ratio RO|DI/Tap. In the winter months we also batch RO/Di for my brother to use in his humidifiers. He uses up to 3 gallons a day in the driest coldest months.

In order to monitor all of this I have a Bluelab Guardian monitor. I paid less than the current price. Mine is the most basic version and they come with wireless connectivity etc. If you want the features and will pay up for them: Bluelab Guardian



I also have a couple of digital TDS pens. You can get these pretty cheaply on Amazon. HM TDS-3



As for ammonia, we cannot simply assume that any level we see on a hobby test kit is necessarily dangerous. Most kits measure Total Ammonia (TA) which includes ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4). The former is very toxic while the latter is much less so. How much TA is in each form depends upon the pH and temperature of the water, The higher these are, the more toxic the TA becomes.

I wrote 3 articles for another site similar to this one but way way more active. Here is the part about how to work with ammonia:

SOME IMPORTANT FACTS ABOUT AMMONIA

Ammonia in water exists in two forms. NH3, which is the familiar nasty gas we know. Fish exhale NH3. Rotting organic matter will also create ammonia. This stuff is highly toxic and will definitely be harming fish by the time it reaches a concentration of .05 ppm (Some fish and inverts need even lower levels to be safe). However, most of the ammonia in water exists in the form of ammonium which is NH4. This is way less harmful. But in sufficient concentrations and/or exposure times, it causes external burns. The typical test kits we use measure Total Ammonia (TA) which is the sum of both NH3 and NH4.

Knowing how dangerous any level of TA might be requires that one know not only how much total ammonia there is but also how much of that total is in each form? The answer depends upon two other water parameters- pH and temperature. The higher the pH and/or temperature, the more of the TA that is in the toxic NH3 form. To calculate how much of the toxic NH3 form of ammonia requires that you know what the pH and temperature of your tank water are. Once you know all three numbers (total ammonia, pH and temperature) there is a formula for calculating how much of the total ammonia is in the form of NH3. It is way more complicated to use than most of us can handle. Fortunately, there are charts and tables available for this calculation. There is also currently a handy dandy ammonia calculator you can find here: http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php

1. Choose NH (NH3 + NH4)*
2. Enter in the total ammonia reading from your test, choose ppm.
3. For a fresh water tank, enter 0 for the salinity.
4. Enter your tank’s current pH.
5. Enter your tank temperature and choose F or C, whichever applies.
6. Click Calculate.

The number you want to know is the one for NH3.

[* If your kit measures ammonia as nitrogen aka –N, choose NH-N (NH3-N + NH4-N) in step 1. above.]

Also, the EPA has no standards for ammonia in drinking water. However, what usually causes it is the use of chlormaine as opposed to chlorine as the primary disinfectant. Chloriamine is made by combining chlorine and ammonia. When we use dechlor on chloramine, it causes it to rbreak down into the two components. The dechlor neutralizes the chlorine. Depending on which brand one uses, it may also detoxify ammonia. It does this by converting it to NH4. The bacteria can still use this but do so less efficiently that they use NH3.

The amount of ammonia created by breaking down chloramine in a cycled tank is usually so low that it gets consumed by the bacteria pretty fast. The bacteria multiply when there is more ammonia available than they need to thrive.

Lastly, one of the Ph.D. folks in the hobby whom I greatly respect says one should never feed beef heart to any fish. I have kept discus in the past and DD black angels as well. I never fed beefheart. My altums have never tasted it either. So you were correct to stop feeding it. I know some discus folks will say to feed it. I do not agree.
 

Trillium1000

AC Members
Dec 18, 2023
9
1
3
45
A few things.

First, you reported very few accurate parameter readings for either your tap or tank. I saw 82F for water temp and 0-2ppm for ammonia in the tap. But what are the tank parameters and the rest of those for the tapas well: pH, GH, KH.

I keep true altum angels. To my knowledge there are not albino altums. What you have are albino Peruvian "altum" which is not a Pterophyllum altum it is a Pterophyllum scalare.

I have also had a 3 stage RO/DI unit form a number of years. I am space constrained and I use a portable unit. I got it specifically to deal with wild altums angels. I also just replaced it with a 4 stage unit. I have excellent well water Over the 23 years I have kept fish it has had a pH between 7.0 and 7.4. But is also contains excess CO2 when it come from the tap. So, before it is out-gassed, the pH reads in the low 6s. Over the years the TDS has been as low as 55 ppm and as high as about 110 ppm. Think KH between 2° and 5° and GH between 3° and 6°. The numbers change depending on the frequency and quantity of rain and snow in any given season.

Here is where I bought my units and they are portable. I have a sink with the faucet adapted to allow a graden hose size connector to screw into it. My units come with a compatible connector. I put the output of it into a 20 Gal. Rubbermaid/ I store 20 gals. in 1 gal jugs. and another 24 gals in bigger containers. I batch the changing water in a Rubbermaid next to the tank and use the same monitor probes in the can to allow me to batch changing water at the parameters need for any given water change. I usually target a pH 6.0 and a TDS under 70 ppm for the tank and adjust the changing water to be where I need them for that.


My original 3 stage RO/DI cost me about $125 + shipping. Today is is a bit more. I just did my first run with the 4 stage unit (cost $159): sediment-->carbon-->RO-->DI. It makes pure water. I do not remineralize, I mix my changing water at 11/9 ratio RO|DI/Tap. In the winter months we also batch RO/Di for my brother to use in his humidifiers. He uses up to 3 gallons a day in the driest coldest months.

In order to monitor all of this I have a Bluelab Guardian monitor. I paid less than the current price. Mine is the most basic version and they come with wireless connectivity etc. If you want the features and will pay up for them: Bluelab Guardian



I also have a couple of digital TDS pens. You can get these pretty cheaply on Amazon. HM TDS-3



As for ammonia, we cannot simply assume that any level we see on a hobby test kit is necessarily dangerous. Most kits measure Total Ammonia (TA) which includes ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4). The former is very toxic while the latter is much less so. How much TA is in each form depends upon the pH and temperature of the water, The higher these are, the more toxic the TA becomes.

I wrote 3 articles for another site similar to this one but way way more active. Here is the part about how to work with ammonia:

SOME IMPORTANT FACTS ABOUT AMMONIA

Ammonia in water exists in two forms. NH3, which is the familiar nasty gas we know. Fish exhale NH3. Rotting organic matter will also create ammonia. This stuff is highly toxic and will definitely be harming fish by the time it reaches a concentration of .05 ppm (Some fish and inverts need even lower levels to be safe). However, most of the ammonia in water exists in the form of ammonium which is NH4. This is way less harmful. But in sufficient concentrations and/or exposure times, it causes external burns. The typical test kits we use measure Total Ammonia (TA) which is the sum of both NH3 and NH4.

Knowing how dangerous any level of TA might be requires that one know not only how much total ammonia there is but also how much of that total is in each form? The answer depends upon two other water parameters- pH and temperature. The higher the pH and/or temperature, the more of the TA that is in the toxic NH3 form. To calculate how much of the toxic NH3 form of ammonia requires that you know what the pH and temperature of your tank water are. Once you know all three numbers (total ammonia, pH and temperature) there is a formula for calculating how much of the total ammonia is in the form of NH3. It is way more complicated to use than most of us can handle. Fortunately, there are charts and tables available for this calculation. There is also currently a handy dandy ammonia calculator you can find here: http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php

1. Choose NH (NH3 + NH4)*
2. Enter in the total ammonia reading from your test, choose ppm.
3. For a fresh water tank, enter 0 for the salinity.
4. Enter your tank’s current pH.
5. Enter your tank temperature and choose F or C, whichever applies.
6. Click Calculate.

The number you want to know is the one for NH3.

[* If your kit measures ammonia as nitrogen aka –N, choose NH-N (NH3-N + NH4-N) in step 1. above.]

Also, the EPA has no standards for ammonia in drinking water. However, what usually causes it is the use of chlormaine as opposed to chlorine as the primary disinfectant. Chloriamine is made by combining chlorine and ammonia. When we use dechlor on chloramine, it causes it to rbreak down into the two components. The dechlor neutralizes the chlorine. Depending on which brand one uses, it may also detoxify ammonia. It does this by converting it to NH4. The bacteria can still use this but do so less efficiently that they use NH3.

The amount of ammonia created by breaking down chloramine in a cycled tank is usually so low that it gets consumed by the bacteria pretty fast. The bacteria multiply when there is more ammonia available than they need to thrive.

Lastly, one of the Ph.D. folks in the hobby whom I greatly respect says one should never feed beef heart to any fish. I have kept discus in the past and DD black angels as well. I never fed beefheart. My altums have never tasted it either. So you were correct to stop feeding it. I know some discus folks will say to feed it. I do not agree.
This is SO HELPFUL! THANK YOU! I'm going to re-read this very carefully. So many familiar points that I'd like to know more about. I'll circle back in a day or so when I can get through these details. Grateful!
 
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FJB

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Jun 7, 2019
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All said is true and I sincerely hope it helps you. I believe you become ticked off at mu earlier post, which I regret.

However, the most pressing issue in the tank in question is (it) being a severely overstocked small tank, and insufficient water change volume being performed regularly. There is no better or nicer way to say that, unless one lies to you.
As an example, just the 10 discus, or just the angels by themselves are more reasonable stocking levels for a 75g. Altogether, it is just to much, particularly under insufficient water changes.
When in a small tank, and with the other stock present, fish like discus will always be stressed and outcompeted (for food, for space, for areas to establish their territories) by the more assertive geos and angels, and by their own intra-specific aggression. Discus like to behave as shoals (with their hierarchies), usually around physical items inside the tank. That is not possible under current circumstances. The result - Chronic sub-optimal conditions that almost always result in they succumbing to issues that they would otherwise have partial resistance to, and eventually die. That is what you are experiencing.
The low ammonia in tap water does not help matters, but it by itself is probably not the main issue. A healthy filter, or presence of a healthy and abundant plant population would take care of that almost immediately, with few repercussions (provided it is not much ammonia). An RO unit (or treating water outside) will help with the ammonia in the tap water, but will not help with the other, more pressing issues. An FX6 is a nice filter (I use several myself in my tanks), but will not solve the space or overcrowding. Sorry, but it needs to be stated if one really wants to help you overcome the current situation. Good luck!
 
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