It just keeps getting worse!!!

[FancyFins]

:1zhelp: For DAYS I have been trying to get a chance to make this post, and today the problem just got more complicated! I'm afraid this is going to be a very long post.

This 30 gal tank has been in operation since 1 July 2006, with a cheap HOB filter, chunky gravel, a bubble wand for aeration, and a Fluval heater. No ornaments - there were some for a while, but the pleco was too big to use them and the fish didn't care for them.

I *had* cabomba (I think), duckweed and one other type of plant I still haven't identified, that all came from my BIL. Fish were 1 pleco (hypostomus) and a herd of guppies. Now I have 1 pleco, half a herd of guppies (dropping like flies), and that one plant I can't identify. There is still some duckweed hanging out in the filtration material, so it may come back eventually.

See, I went and got pregnant and had a baby and neglected my tank/logs for a while (i.e. months), so it's hard to say when this problem started. The last reading that I wrote down was in November - pH 7.6, Ammon 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5 and temp 76F. After that, I was doing occasional water changes and testing, but not writing them down. Um, *VERY* occasional. :headshake2: :shakehead: :nono: :duh:

In June, when the duckweed took over and smothered out all the cabomba, I started paying attention again. Apparently, I made all the wrong moves. These are the readings from June 16 - pH 6.0, Ammonia 4, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 160 (I know!!) and 78F. I had read that you shouldn't do large water changes unless it was an emergency (and no fish had actually died, just plants - so not an emergency, right? :duh So... I did small water changes (10gal or 5gal) every other day for a couple of weeks, adding ammonia lockers and pH up. But every time I tested I got pH 6.0, Ammonia 4 or even 8, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 80. :22_yikes: Terrible, but I didn't realize - I had forgotten that even a little ammonia is bad. Finally, I got some NitraZorb in the tank Aug 5 (had to order and wait for it to arrive), which helped soak up the extra Ammo and Nitrate), so that on the evening of Aug 12, I thought I had everything almost under control! Readings: pH 6.8, Ammonia .25/.5, Nitrite still 0, Nitrate 10. :headbang2::woot:

BUT!

The next morning, pH was back to frickin' 6.0. I had taken the NitraZorb out to recharge it, and the #$% pouch burst while I was "gently rinsing" it, so now, even though I came here and discovered that I needed to be changing more water (did a 50% change 8/12 and a 50% change 8/13, and a 10gal/33% change today) - the levels are rising again.

AND!

This morning, the water was clooudy, and it still is. After I did the 33% change and there was still cloudiness, I looked more closely and discovered scum on top of the water. Two fish died after I finished the vacuuming and refilling, even though he water changes were as close as I could get to the same temp (The tank has been 72 degrees lately, which is about the coldest our tap water gets at the moment. I suspect the heater's not working).

Pretty much all the male guppies have ratty tails, and the ones that died were the worst. I've been wanting to treat for fin/tail rot, but I'm not sure if that's the right diagnosis - plus, if I do, I can't change the water out! :wall: :wall:

Obviously, something is seriously wrong here.
1) What on earth is making the ammonia and nitrates rocket, while the nitrite stays the same?
2) What is making the pH plummet? I left some tap water out overnight, and it went from 7.6 to 7.4, while the water in the tank went from 7.6 to 6.4.
3) And what is this nasty white scum in the water? :barf:

I probably sound like a big ninny and a horrible fish keeper :cry::nilly::sad:, but I just want to get this tank set straight. The pleco seems fine, but there's no telling for sure. I had too many guppies anyway, and Lord knows they'll make more, but I was wanting to get some different kinds of fish - tetras or rasboras or something. And if I can't keep these alive, I obviously don't need more. :sad::cry:

mg::help2:

I think I'm done now. :frog:

 

[echoofformless]

Is this your first tank?

 

[cmartin]

You say that you are doing the water changes, but are you vacuuming the substrate too?

I would look around the tank for any 'remains' that may be in there messing up your readings.

The cloudy water may just be the bacteria building back up.

Keep up the water changes - it is the best bet to get things straightened out. The scum on the water may be a result of the chemicals and Nitrazorb.

Wish I had more advice, but if I was in your spot - I would be posting here and asking for advice as well.

Good luck - I hope things get back on track for you.

 

[FancyFins]

Not my first tank, exactly. I did have the 10g running for a few months before I set up the 30g. Then later I moved the male guppies in with the females (trying to separate them prior to mating was hopeless), and the 10g has been sitting for a few months.

You say that you are doing the water changes, but are you vacuuming the substrate too?

Yes, vacuuming like crazy!

The cloudy water may just be the bacteria building back up.

Do you mean the nitrifying bacteria or something else?

Keep up the water changes - it is the best bet to get things straightened out. The scum on the water may be a result of the chemicals and Nitrazorb.

The NitraZorb was already out, and I hadn't put any chemicals in (other than my new Prime) since 8/11 - before I did two consecutive 50% WCs. However, this morning I put in Ammo-Lock (the water was already cloudy), and tonight I tried Accu-Clear in desparation.

Good luck - I hope things get back on track for you.

Thanks! I hope so too!

 

[soobie]

I would just keep up with the water changes/vacuuming, don't use any chemicals other than Prime, and keep testing. Treat it like you are fishy-cycling the tank again, i.e. test daily, sizable water changes when the ammo and nitrite are above .25.

I'd guess that the ammonia keeps rocketing up because there's a dead fish in there somewhere. Check in the filter, too, and rinse the media in old tank water when you do a water change.

Also, reduced feedings until you get the parameters under control may help, so the fish will be producing less waste.

Good luck!

 

[echoofformless]

Ive never had any ammonia increase due to a dead fish or what not. A well established system should never show ammonia, ever.

Anyway - why were you using Nitra-Zorb? You really shouldn't ever require the use of anything aside from mechanical/biological filtration.

I say just give it the time to cycle, keep up with cleaning, hope for the best.

 

[DarkSoul]

first off let me say, i dont have fish yet... so I hope what im about to say may be an accurate assesment of the situation based on what ive absorbed from around here.

as mentioned the ammonia could be caused by a dead fish somewhere... or something i cant even think of right now.

it might be possible that during all that time of neglect a bunch of anaerobic bacteria built up under the substrate, and when you started stirring up the gravel you disturbed all that, and pockets of toxic stuff has been released into the water.


anyone with any actual experience care to comment on my words?

 

[Sploke]

It sounds like a classic case of Old Tank Syndrome (OTS). I went through the same thing with a neglected 55gal about 3 years ago at my parents' house.

What happens, as I understand it, is that due to lack of water changes, and sometimes overstocking (in my case) your nitrates keep getting higher and higher. When you posted a reading of 160, was that as high as your test kit went? If so, did you cut the sample with bottled water and test again? If not, its possible that the levels were even higher.

A buildup of nitrate levels that high eats away at the buffer in the water, and will eventually cause a pH crash, as you saw. Normal pH was 7.6, and now its dropped to 6? Again did the test kit go lower, or was that the bottom gradient? Is it possible that the pH was even lower? In any case, what happens is that the severe pH swing basically kills off your biological filtration, leading to an ammonia spike. This basically puts you back to square one, since you have to re-cycle the filter now to re-establish your bacteria colonies. This explains why you are now getting ammonia readings.

So, basically keep doing water changes, if your tap pH is 7.6, the water changes will help build the buffer back up in the water and stabilize the pH. You're going to be doing lots of water changes anyway to get the fish through the ammonia and nitrite spikes. you may want to get some established filter media from another tank someplace to help jumpstart the cycle - it will reduce the time required as well as the stress on the fish.

 

[silentskream]

darksoul, i think you've got some excellent points, but i have to agree that the real culprit is probably OTS.. (with perhaps some dead fish rotting and anarobic bacteria mixed in.

i would, personally take all the fish out and put them in a bucket (preferably half full with tank water). then replace all the water in the tank with new (dont forget to treat it!)... in other words a 99.999% water change, then slowly add some fresh treated water into the bucket. until the bucket is full. (so half old tank water and half new fresh water.) then i'd dump out half of that water, and continue adding fresh water slowly until the bucket was full. (at this point, in theory, you'd have 25% old tank water and 75% fresh water) It's IMPERATIVE that you do this as SLOWLY as humanly possible. I would suggest doing it a water droplet at a time if i thought it could be done without going insane. if you do this too quickly, ALL of your fish could die. this is where fish that have lived through this kind of thing seem to ALWAYS give up the ghost. VERY VERY SLOWLY

while you're doing this, do what sploke said and get some established filter media from a well established tank. some established gravel would help too if you can find some. once the water is treated and the fish have been properly acclimated to fresh water, put the fish in it.

you're probably going to need to do several water changes.. probably one every day. you have to keep your ammonia below .25, and it can build up FAST. if you get enough filter media and gravel you may be able to get around this, but either way you should at least test twice a day.

good luck and keep us posted!

 

[FancyFins]

The water is clear this morning, so that's something. Haven't tested parameters yet.

as mentioned the ammonia could be caused by a dead fish somewhere... or something i cant even think of right now.

it might be possible that during all that time of neglect a bunch of anaerobic bacteria built up under the substrate, and when you started stirring up the gravel you disturbed all that, and pockets of toxic stuff has been released into the water.

Gravel is a very thin layer (basically 1 rock deep) and has been vacuumed thoroughly 3-4 times in the past week, so there aren't any unseen dead fish. Can pockets form under that thin a layer of substrate?

It sounds like a classic case of Old Tank Syndrome (OTS). I went through the same thing with a neglected 55gal about 3 years ago at my parents' house.

What happens, as I understand it, is that due to lack of water changes, and sometimes overstocking (in my case) your nitrates keep getting higher and higher. When you posted a reading of 160, was that as high as your test kit went?

Thank you! This explains everything. Yes, I meant to specify that in the original post - pH 6.0 is the lowest measurement, Nitrate 160 is the highest measurement, highest measure for Ammonia is 8.0.

In any case,what happens is that the severe pH swing basically kills off your biological filtration, leading to an ammonia spike. This basically puts you back to square one, since you have to re-cycle the filter now to re-establish your bacteria colonies.

I wondered if my bacteria had died off somehow, so I tried adding bacteria (Biozyme - the dry stuff), but there was still no nitrite after that, so I thought it was okay after all. From what I've read here though, the Biozyme just didn't work.

So, basically keep doing water changes, if your tap pH is 7.6, the water changes will help build the buffer back up in the water and stabilize the pH. You're going to be doing lots of water changes anyway to get the fish through the ammonia and nitrite spikes. you may want to get some established filter media from another tank someplace to help jumpstart the cycle - it will reduce the time required as well as the stress on the fish.

My BIL has an established tank, but it probably has worse OTS than mine does. He never changes water, just adds. :silly: I can ask on Freecycle (though you never know what you'll get there).

i would, personally take all the fish out and put them in a bucket (preferably half full with tank water). then replace all the water in the tank with new (dont forget to treat it!)... in other words a 99.999% water change...

While this would probably be ideal, I have 3 small kids to keep up with, including a nursing baby, and simply can't devote hours to lugging buckets across the house. I will try to keep changing 50% a day. Maybe I can talk DH into getting a Python, but probably not. He thinks I've been changing the water too much.

So... what about the tatty tails? Do I treat for fin rot or leave it alone for now?