help, sick convict cichlids!

Not trying to pick a fight, but to me, what I understand you to say is that a large colony can grow on next to nil ammonia.

Yes, bacteria can grow on trace amounts of ammonia, but their growth is still limited to the amount available. For bacteria to reach it's carrying capacity it must be fed all the ammonia that the colony can re mediate optimally. If not enough ammonia is present, the colony will never reach it's remediation potential. Large water exchanges do not solve the problem, they only remove the nutrients that the bacteria need. If your tank has a high bio-load, then they will emit larger amounts of ammonia, and you will consequently need a larger colony of bacteria to convert it to NO3.
Healthy ecosystems do not have huge swings in ammonia, they reach an equilibrium. By doing large water exchanges, ammonia can swing from 0 to .5 in a two days. This is not optimal for fish either.
Yes, some fish can show stress around 0.25ppm, but serious damage will only occur at higher levels. We are talking about convicts here, they aren't extremely sensitive fish.
 
Well the way I see it is that I dont go out and adopt pitbulls and mix them with Rotweilers to see how they react and its the same with buying fish and putting them in a situation knowingly that something may go wrong. You said you "thought" the tank was cycled but yet also you said all meds are on hand, how about the testing strips to make sure your tank was cycled. I am not a pro or anything but dont see the point or buying fish to do EXSPERIMENTS WITH THEM.
 
i see what you are saying, but even with large (yet under 100%) water changes, there is still ammonia available to the bacteria at all times. while they may not grow as quickly as in a fishless cycle with 3-5ppm of ammonia available at all times, they will still grow, and are under constraints anyway as to how often they can divide within a certain time period. any amount of ammonia above what can immediately be converted will be an excess food source that allows for growth of the colonies. even if it is below a measurable amount (under .25ppm) there is still plenty of it for bacteria to consume. they may not double daily as in a fishless or unregulated cycle, but they will consume x ammonia, then the next day x+.05, then x+.1, then x+.15 etc. . . an as example until they are able to handle the full bioload of fish in the tank.
 
and nevertheless, sick fish need fresh clean water to get better. worry about healing the fish before dealing with the bacteria and the cycle.
 
Well, I guess your logic is sound, although the problem here is that when you dilute the ammonia concentration "below the measurable amount" you could be diluting it below an optimal threshold for the bacterial growth... but you would never know, because you can't measure it! I see what you are saying, but I think (as with many things) a happy medium might be the best solution. Yes, do water exchanges, but not so severe that it might hurt your colony. On the other hand, if ammonia levels are reaching .75ppm or above, a large water exchange might be a better choice.

Do test kits really only test to 0.25ppm? I would think they would get closer to 0.1ppm. I usually bring a water sample to work on days when I test water chemistry and test it there along with the samples from our research systems. The ranges on the TAN test can go from 0.05ppm to 3ppm ammonia. Those tests are more technical than a hobbyist would ever need, but it does save me some money not having to buy my own reagents and kits. So I don't really know the ranges on aquarium kits.
 
But as a response to your second statement, yes sick fish need clean water to get better, but the minute you make them better and start to work on your bacteria, they will probably be affected again.

Really, this whole thing should have been avoided by having the thing broken in well before you even stock the tank. #1 rule, for both aquariums AND aquaculture research systems.
 
Moon, what kind of experiments do you do? I mean are you really trying to do legitimate science? or are you just dabbling? if you have some crazy question, I might be able to do a small, short term experiment for you at my work. of course it depends on the question.
 
kimbo3311 said:
Really, this whole thing should have been avoided by having the thing broken in well before you even stock the tank. #1 rule, for both aquariums AND aquaculture research systems.
Click to expand...

absolutely agree.

i think the kit most people use is the aquarium pharmaceuticals test kits. they measure 0, .25, .5, 1, 2, 4, and 8ppm.
 
I DID cycle the tank, test the water, get 0 reading for amonia and nitrite, under 40 readings for nitrite, and I have the meds on hand from previous issues with my 3 yr old FW tank.

I have never had an issue with tanks not being cycled, this is the first time.

I am in 7th grade, I am not doing a huge wacky experiment. it is simple, I am beinging school and the hobby (or really an obsession) I love together. I will continue to test daily and do small waterchanges as needed.

I will be donging another salt bath today, they seemed much happier after the last one.

thanks again for the help!
 
that weird, I checked them as soon as I came home from school, they have nothing on them that suggests they were just sick, all but one (the smallest and most submissive) have darker body colors, redish tinted fins, blue sheens to their dorsal fins, and balck/blue edges to their ther fins.

could they have recovered so quickly? any ideas? they are all out and about exploring and healthy...
 
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