goldfish breed origins

F

fish guru

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Nov 12, 2007
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My friend was telling me all of these goldfish breeds, and I feel that some of them are not true. please answer. are shubunkins a cross between koi and goldfish? or is this just some bs? also, he said that ryukins aree a cross between shubunkins and fan tail goldfish. I feel that this is definetly untrue but I want to hear some of your opinions. thanks in advance.:)
 
all goldfish are of the species carrasias auratus, just as all dogs (different as they seem) are all canis lupus familiarus. koi on the other hand are cyprinus carpio. since they are not even in the same family, i am doubtful that they could interbreed successfully. after a quick google search, it seems that shubunkins were developed by a cross of an early fancy goldfish with a wild-type fish. that may be incorrect though it seems like a good source (http://northtrop.co.uk/).

as for the ryukin, it seems like calico-colored ones may indeed have some shubunkin bloodlines as they do not achieve the same 'height' to their humps as the other colors do, but i think overall they started somewhere else. i think it's more likely they started as a kind of mutation which was selected for and heavily bred rather than as a cross between two other fish.

asian breeders (now and in the past) have always been very secretive about their 'fish recipes' (blood parrots, flowerhorns, etc) and we may never know how many of these goldfish truly got started, and what it took to make them what they are today. even now, there is a big difference between the prize fish in asia, and what we find on the market in the US. the best fish don't make it out of there, or if they do it's for a very high price.
 
Watuagachicken is correct, though goldies and carp (including koi) are in the same family (Cyprinidae) and have been known to hybridize. However, there is almost certainly no koi blood in any existing goldfish breeds.

Like dogs, the basic stock of each major group of goldfish breeds probably resulted from independent lineages of wild stock which were culled and selectively bred for many generations, with perhaps occasional infusions of genetic material from wild-type stock or from another breed. Generally two highly-developed lineages will not be crossed by breeders, as the offspring are likely to be unpredictable mutts or reversions to wild-type appearance.
 
wataugachicken said:
even now, there is a big difference between the prize fish in asia, and what we find on the market in the US. the best fish don't make it out of there, or if they do it's for a very high price.
Click to expand...

Out here you mean... The best goldies never leave Asia, and even the ones that fetch a PREMIUM over here are still not nearly as nice as you could probably find picking through a nicely stocked store in Singapore. Oh to live on a goldfish farm...
 
Inka4040 said:
Out here you mean... The best goldies never leave Asia, and even the ones that fetch a PREMIUM over here are still not nearly as nice as you could probably find picking through a nicely stocked store in Singapore. Oh to live on a goldfish farm...
Click to expand...

I guess it's all depends on what you find pretty. Personally I think all of the fancy breeds look deformed and ill. I really dislike the split tail mutation. I also thought that turtle I caught as a kid with two heads was grossly ugly.

I've heard that a lake near where I live has some goldfish that have reverted back to the wild type. I think I might go and see if I can net one for my tank. Nothing like watching the motion of a healthy fish.

Then again I'm a melon breeder and have you ever looked at the Asian melons? Hami's bring a new definition to the term ugly. I guess beauty all depends on where you are from.
 
The one thing it makes me happy of is that those fish will never get stuck in a bowl...

panda.jpg
 
You know, of all the fish I've ever kept, nothing really makes me sigh like a beautiful goldfish. The way they hold their fins, their deportment, body shape, and balance are all a thing of beauty to me. I can totally understand why people think they are ugly though... For me, it takes very little to turn me off of a particular fish. The proportions have to be just perfect (for my eyes), but part of the fun is the search for that fish of your dreams. If you've ever seen a full grown broadtail ryukin in it's full glory, maybe you'd see why I find fancy goldfish so beautiful. By the way, it takes absurdly little time for them to revert back to the wild type. Apart from the fact that singletailed fry will be present in most if not all batches of fry, and the rest likely won't survive, it could happen in as little as 1 generation.

For this fish, I would literally do anything. I would spend a month's rent on it because it hits my eye *just so*. We're all crazy for different things I guess.

broadtail.JPG
 
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:mad2:How dare you The V! He's just "special".
 
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