Goldfish Can Feel Pain?

Kashta

Always Niko's fault.....
Jun 24, 2008
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Yet another study done to prove something we already know.
Oh well...

There's some great info here, too, to help us interpet behavior we see and know what it means for the fish exhibiting those signs.

Quite interesting...

~ kashta

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Goldfish can feel pain, say scientists

Telegraph.co.uk - United Kingdom
By Roger Dobson
Last Updated: 10:49PM BST 25 Apr 2009

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It is a question that has puzzled scientists – and anglers – for generations, but now a team of researchers claims to have demonstrated that fish do feel pain.

Whilst the creatures can clearly be seen to react to a jab or blow, experts have disagreed over whether the reaction indicates a sensation of pain, or is little more than a basic reflex.

Researchers set out to establish the truth with an experiment in which goldfish were exposed to painful heat. Half of the fish were given a painkilling injection of morphine beforehand, while the other half were not.

Two hours later, the fish that had undergone the test without painkillers showed signs of fear and wariness – suggesting, say the researchers, that they had suffered a bad experience and remembered it.

The academics, from Norway and the US, say their finding undermines claims that fish merely display reflex actions and do not sense pain.

"The results show that it could not have been a simple reflex action," said Dr Joseph Garner.

"The fact that their behaviour changed so much really strongly suggests there is something going on with their memory and experience of that event that is not a reflex. I believe it does show that fish feel pain."

For the experiment, each fish was fitted with a miniature jacket containing a tiny flexible foil heater similar to those used in the aerospace industry to keep wires and electrics dry. The heaters had an upper safety limit of 50C to prevent harm.

Both groups of fish – those given morphine, and the control group which were injected with inactive saline solution – showed a similar "escape response" when the heater was turned up to around 38C, equivalent to a fairly hot bath.

As soon as the behaviour was noted, the heat was turned off to prevent suffering.

An escape response consisted of curling the body or flicking the tail in a way that would have propelled the fish away had its movements not been restricted.

However, the difference between the groups emerged after the fish had been returned to their normal home tanks. Two hours later, it was the fish which had not been given morphine which were more likely to display fearful behaviour such as "hovering".

"Morphine had some effect on their behaviour in the test, but the major effect was this response two hours later. That was really key," said Dr Garner of Purdue University, Indiana, a co-author.

"Those fish not given morphine showed hovering behaviour and were less active. These are defence and fear behaviours.

"We believe this hovering and inactivity are indicators of a general increase in fearfulness, wariness, and a generalisation of a bad experience. It is extremely difficult to explain this two hours later as a reflex.

"The fact that morphine did alleviate these behavioural changes suggests there is some sort of central experience of that painful stimulus."

The work was carried out by Janicke Nordgreen with colleagues at the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science and Purdue University. The findings are reported in the journal Applied Animal Behaviour Science.
The RSPCA backed the conclusion that fish can feel pain.

A spokesman for the charity said: "We welcome the finding of this research. We have always believed that the benefit of the doubt should be given, in cases like this, to the possibility they do feel pain."

The researchers had to adapt techniques which are regularly used in laboratories to carry out heat pain tests on land-living animals.

In such tests, an animal typically stands on a heated plate which is slowly warmed, but is blocked from reaching a temperature that causes injury.
Animals subjected to a rapid rise in temperature tend to display automatic reactions, such as flicking their tails away from a hot spots.

A slower rise in temperature is thought to trigger higher-level thought processes in the brain, prompting animals into more intelligent responses such as lifting one foot and then the other, or licking their feet to cool them down.

Such reactions are generally accepted as signs of pain sensation. The use of the miniature jackets enabled the Norwegian and American researchers to conduct an equivalent test on goldfish.

Previous experiments have shown that fish have nerve cells which activate in response to pain stimuli, but some experts say this is not enough to prove that they feel pain.

One of the aspects that is thought to distinguish pain sensations from mere reflex reactions is that pain, as a conscious emotion, is remembered and recalled.

In a study carried out at the Roslin Institute, near Edinburgh, in 2003, rainbow trout which had their lips injected with acid or bee venom were observed to rub the affected area on the gravel at the bottom of their tank, leading the researchers to conclude that they were in pain.

The fish were found to have 58 nerve receptors on their faces and heads.

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sciencea...86/Goldfish-can-feel-pain-say-scientists.html
 
Very interesting read. I knew fish can feel pain! Thanks for sharing, Kashta.
 
Seems pretty obvious but many "researchers" don't seem to understand about pain.

It was not understood (or believed) that human babies feel pain and major surgery was done on them with no anesthetic. We still do surgery on babies with no anesthetic.
 
All fish feel pain, they are loaded with more nerve endings udner their scales then human have in their body.

Fish however do not have nearly as many nerve endings in the mouths if only but 3-4 endings to feel for food at their lips.

They might be wary of a bad situation but they are by no means smart to avoid the situation again and again.

Anyone who is an angler had knowledge of fish nerves and what exactly fish feel when on a hook and line. they fight because of the resistance not the pain.
 
thanks for the article
 
"One of the aspects that is thought to distinguish pain sensations from mere reflex reactions is that pain, as a conscious emotion, is remembered and recalled." [quote from the article]

Thanks Kashta, I've always thought that the above mentioned belief that pain is not felt as pain unless it can be remembered and recalled was illogical.

A doctor told me once before a surgery that "...even if you did wake up during surgery the drugs we give you will make you have no memory of it..."

(We were having this discussion because this had happened one time, actually before surgery got started but after intubation: the IV drip line had gotten crimped and I was awake but paralysed by the drug they give you. I remembered and related, to that different surgeon, the conversation they were having. I had tried to wiggle or move or open my eyes to let them know I was awake; I couldn't blink my eye even. Thankfully it was discovered before they started cutting on me, lol. No I'm not traumatized for life, I've had several surgeries since that one. no big deal.)

Anyway, I said, "Just because I won't remember it doesn't mean it's OK for me to go through it."

He said, "Well, if you don't remember it it didn't happen."

"Then why", I asked, "do we insist upon humane, pain free lethal injection for condemned murderers? They won't remember the experience. They won't recall it."

He sort of just stared kind of blankly for a second and said, "Well, we're not going to torture you."

Longwinded story. My point is. Even if a fish or any other creature doesn't hold onto the memory of a painful experience, even if they forget it after an hour, or ten minutes, or a few seconds, that doesn't make the experiencing of the pain acceptable, or any less intense or agonizing.
 
Both groups of fish – those given morphine, and the control group which were injected with inactive saline solution – showed a similar "escape response" when the heater was turned up to around 38C, equivalent to a fairly hot bath.

An escape response consisted of curling the body or flicking the tail in a way that would have propelled the fish away had its movements not been restricted.

"Those fish not given morphine showed hovering behaviour and were less active. These are defence and fear behaviours.

"We believe this hovering and inactivity are indicators of a general increase in fearfulness, wariness, and a generalisation of a bad experience. It is extremely difficult to explain this two hours later as a reflex.

One of the aspects that is thought to distinguish pain sensations from mere reflex reactions is that pain, as a conscious emotion, is remembered and recalled.

For me, the concept that fish both feel pain and are capable of remembering was a given. What I found of even greater value from this article was that it also gives us tangible clues we can recognize in terms of behavior that lets us know what the fish is experiencing and how it responds to fear and discomfort.
 
Here is the original paper that the article discusses. Although interesting not as conclusive as journalist makes it look.

Janicke Nordgreen, Joseph P. Garner, Andrew Michael Janczak, Birgit Ranheim, William M. Muir, Tor Einar Horsberg, Thermonociception in fish: Effects of two different doses of morphine on thermal threshold and post-test behaviour in goldfish (Carassius auratus), Applied Animal Behaviour Science, In Press, Corrected Proof, Available online 18 April 2009, ISSN 0168-1591, DOI: 10.1016/j.applanim.2009.03.015.

They seem to be splitting hairs as to what pain actually is. It's more an argument in semetics than solid science.

Pain in humans is defined by the International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP) as “an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage,” and further “activity induced in the nociceptors and nociceptive pathways by a noxious stimulus is not pain, which is always a psychological state.” There are considerable challenges in designing experiments that specifically address pain in fish; the focus of research has therefore been on describing the nociceptive system.

As pain is a psychological state it is almost impossible to compare the pain response from those in humans to that of the fish. This paper actually shows that morphine blocks the fishes nociceptive pathway in regards to heat. It makes several claims that are not substantiated by the research. What their research actually shows is something already well substantiated in numerous papers... fish can learn. I'm sure this comes as a surprise to everyone here who's fish follow them around begging for food.

Pretty poor research in my opinion. This type research is based more upon proving a point of view than actual science. The journal article is just silly, they use the RSPCA as a source. Now there is an unbiased scientific point of view to add support.

The question of whether or not fish feel pain is still up for debate at this point. However the research so far is not promising. I know we all love our fish but please remember the their brains are very small with limited learning and storage capicity. Most of their behavior is hardwired in.
 
They seem to be splitting hairs as to what pain actually is. It's more an argument in semetics than solid science.

As pain is a psychological state it is almost impossible to compare the pain response from those in humans to that of the fish.

I know we all love our fish but please remember the their brains are very small with limited learning and storage capicity. Most of their behavior is hardwired in.

I enjoy splitting hairs, probably, as much as anyone.. and semantics, too. But this is interesting to think about. Personally, I'd say pain equates more with cognition than it does psychology. Emotion would be psychological, but not a simple awareness of pain.

As I read this, I didn't see them projecting human responses toward pain onto the fish they studied at all. The comparisons made were between fish who experienced a painful stimulus to other fish who didn't, and both were used and observed in the same study. The conclusions made, therefore, were drawn from this and not how humans would react to the same sensations.

While I do agree that instinctive behavior is hardwired in, this doesn't account for all behavior that we observe... which is really a combination of instincts, cognition, memory, and learning.
 
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