barley for algae?

[Robert H]

Tom is right, there have been several studies using barley in ponds where it has shown to have an effect on preventing NEW algae growth, not killing existing algae, and only when the barley is used properly. It is loose barley in nets that decomposes and as it decomposes it releases a chemical that retards alage. When it is decomposing, it is interacting with a fungus. It is not known by scientists if the chemical is coming from the fungus or the barley, and to this day scientists have still not been able to identify what the chemical is. There is some speculation that it is hydrogen perioxide. The decomposition process is dependent on oxygen which is why the barley must be loose and near the water surface.

Given these circumstances, it is unlikely that these extract products could be very effective, particularly since the chemical from the barley/fungus is unidentified. My own speculation is the extract is just diluted hydrogen peroxide, which would have some affect on algae.

 

[dundadundun]

am i correct? from what i've read the same could be said of almost any wood. ie. like a beavers **** or floating limbs caught by a waterfall.

i am also thinking that the same affects could be had with flourish excel, h2o2, floating plants, co2 or just enough ferts and/or lowering light intensity depending on your setup.

i know that balance is the key and although that balance can be quite elusive that is kinda the basis of ei dosing. that basis is to get enough ferts to feed the plants so they outcompete algae without having to constantly test to find that equilibrium.

i think this is also one thing that adds to the success of the walstad method. the idea (i'm thinking) is that the substrate will be packed with the essential nutrients and what is left will be taken directly from what would normally be in the water. this, in effect should be enough for the plants to stay healthy and thus eliminating the chances for algae to get a stronghold on your tank.

this is just a short summary and an example of how the ducks line up in my head when concerning algae. i am actually asking a question and would really like to know if i am right or if there is something i'm missing.

cheers, dun... and thanks in advance... especially to those who know for sure.

 

[SquirrelOsO]

Tom is right, there have been several studies using barley in ponds where it has shown to have an effect on preventing NEW algae growth, not killing existing algae, and only when the barley is used properly. It is loose barley in nets that decomposes and as it decomposes it releases a chemical that retards alage. When it is decomposing, it is interacting with a fungus. It is not known by scientists if the chemical is coming from the fungus or the barley, and to this day scientists have still not been able to identify what the chemical is. There is some speculation that it is hydrogen perioxide. The decomposition process is dependent on oxygen which is why the barley must be loose and near the water surface.

Given these circumstances, it is unlikely that these extract products could be very effective, particularly since the chemical from the barley/fungus is unidentified. My own speculation is the extract is just diluted hydrogen peroxide, which would have some affect on algae.

yes, i did state that it is used to Prevent not kill algae

 

[plantbrain]

yes, i did state that it is used to Prevent not kill algae

I can say this same thing about focusing on good plant health and then it focuses on the root issue, the goal in the first place(plant growth), and the algae issue is indirect.

Who got into this hobby to learn 101 ways to kill and prevent algae? Not one person I've ever met to date. Grow plants, have a nice garden? Everyone pretty much. Algae are like weeds, if you provide a good place for the weed growth, they will grow. If you focus on the crop or the landscape plants, then it's not an issue. Much harder for algae to become established. I'm not a big proponent of herbicides and chemical means to control weeds/algae. Copper kills algae selectively as well,0.4ppm, 1.0ppm will kill plants. Without plants, then ponds can simply use that, or percarbonate for attached algae on rocks, water changes etc.

Cheaper, easier than scrubbing by hand. Toss a pleco in there.
Add daphnia, do not overfeed etc.

I've not needed any "cure all" in the bottle to date for lakes, ponds or aquariums where plants are present. They distract people from the real issue, gardening, and promote the culture of take pill to cure any disease rather than looking at why the issue is present to begin with.

Excel is the exception as it kills and prevents algae, but also adds carbon, a nutrient. So it's both a fertilizer and an algicide. Not that practical for lakes/ponds.

We tested the extract multiple times on aquarium algae with few positive results over a wide range of folks that bothered to try it(SFBAAPS club). Shawn Prescott contacted me a long time ago about this product, I was skeptical then, and even more so after using it. Dupla had a fermented product they sold for a brief time as well back then also. It's a subject and topic I've known about for I guess a decade now.

You put anything in a bottle, a few folks are bound to have some correlation with time. Does not mean it did the action some speculate.
You also need to be specific about how you test it, what species of algae, and at what stage the algae is at.

Most hobbyists just "wanna add it and have it work, end of story", but it's a bit more complicated than that, and the research, the thought, philosophy and the why behind it in many cases are dubious, like Hydrilla Pills for weight loss. Just because they sell it does not imply it works as claimed.
It's marketing, which goes with "preception", not fact.

So these products often hang on for years, decades at times, some promoting the myth, questioning the critics rather than answering the questions posed. This is not some personal issue between you and myself here, it's more about thinking it through and seeing the stuff for what it really is.

I've responded to perhaps 50 threads over the last decade on this topic.
I remain unconvinced. The same is true for most any chemical to cure algae. They fail from the start and prey on the hobbyists that do not know enough and are desperate. Same deal with diet pills, stop eating so much(reduce calories) and/or exercise more.

Regards,
Tom Barr
















Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[powerkit]

only bad I ever heard was of a customers hungry koi ingesting to much and he got bloated. however, i imagine this couldve been prevented in several ways!

 

[plantbrain]

am i correct? from what i've read the same could be said of almost any wood. ie. like a beavers **** or floating limbs caught by a waterfall.

i am also thinking that the same affects could be had with flourish excel, h2o2, floating plants, co2 or just enough ferts and/or lowering light intensity depending on your setup.

i know that balance is the key and although that balance can be quite elusive that is kinda the basis of ei dosing. that basis is to get enough ferts to feed the plants so they outcompete algae without having to constantly test to find that equilibrium.

i think this is also one thing that adds to the success of the walstad method. the idea (i'm thinking) is that the substrate will be packed with the essential nutrients and what is left will be taken directly from what would normally be in the water. this, in effect should be enough for the plants to stay healthy and thus eliminating the chances for algae to get a stronghold on your tank.

this is just a short summary and an example of how the ducks line up in my head when concerning algae. i am actually asking a question and would really like to know if i am right or if there is something i'm missing.

cheers, dun... and thanks in advance... especially to those who know for sure.

Seems right overall.
The DW method does not have high rates of growth due to CO2 limitation. so the source of nutrients last a long time, even with CO2, the source should last a year or more, and then slowly decline.

A wise monkey would use both the water column and the sediment for nutrients. This gets the most out of each location.

Ponds have less control, so we use plants to block the light(much more intense than aquariums) and maintain clear water, the same is true in lakes in Florida. No plants= pea soup, 50% coverage: gin clear water. Remove the 50% coverage = pea soup. Ponds do not use CO2 either, I suppose smaller ones could.......and most ponds go for floating and emergent plants which have no CO2 limitation.

So coverage is all you need to manage and worry about, generally from 2-3rd week in Mar till about Oct in the USA. Pitch fork out the excess and mulch, try and keep 50% or so through the season.
It'll also keep the water much cooler and make it harder for varmits to go after your fish. Light is the main thing plants compete with algae for in natural systems, not nutrients/CO2.

We can modify and reduce the light in aquariums.
Might be why the BSE has not been successful in the planted tanks.

Pond folks have less understanding about nutrients, light and less control, but some good information has long been known in Florida lakes about % coverage and algae and the removal/presence of rooted/floating aquatic plants and clear water etc. The problem is trying to manage a 300 hectare lake and keep 50% coverage and not let it fill in 100%. Hardly an issue for a small pond that's only a mere 3000 gallons or so, large for most hobbyist. A few pitch forks full to the mulch area once a month or sell the excess plants to the brown thumbs:thm:.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[plantbrain]

only bad I ever heard was of a customers hungry koi ingesting to much and he got bloated. however, i imagine this couldve been prevented in several ways!

The koi are after the critters and the slime growth that are on the decayed plants, does not matter what type of plant material it is. Hack the edge of the pond emergent plants back every so often and this keeps out a fair bit and prevent the filters from clogging so often also.

BS alone was inconclusive, BSE is even less so.
Likely put any plant material and make the same comments/claims both negative and positive.

I do not think BSE does any harm, except maybe to the wallet.


Regards,
Tom Barr