Trials of a new fish owner

[mizzie]

Oy, we've had a week, let me tell you. I'm looking for some commiseration and advice, really. Warning, this may be a bit long.

We got our fish last Saturday. I've mentioned here before that we found a really great fish store, but it was about a 3 hour drive away. To make the drive easier on the fish, we brought a cooler full of towels that we could put the bags in. This, hopefully, would help the water temp and keep the bags still and in the dark. We got 1 dwarf gourami (male), 12 neon tetras, 6 paleatus corys and 2 whisker shrimp. (29 gallon tank)

Yes, I know that it's a lot to add to a tank all at once. We talked about that and decided that we would do daily water checks and water changes if the numbers showed anything. I'm sure many of you are shaking your heads now, but I don't think that's what caused the issues. The ammonia and nitrites have been zero every day, so our tank seems to be handling the bio-load just fine.

Sunday: Sunday afternoon I notice that about half of the tetras have white spots. Uh-oh. I checked the fish (and the tanks they were in) very closely before I got them. They were fine, I didn't see anything at all. We go to wal-mart to find ick meds, but all we found was something that I was sure wouldn't work. I can't remember what it was called, but it promised to cure the ick in one dose (a tablet), but didn't say anything about tank size or type of fish. And, I did my homework, I know you can't kill ick while it's on the fish. You need to catch it in the larva stage. At this point, hubby went to the largest town (an hour drive away) and got some QuICK Cure. By time he made it back, we had already lost a few of the tetras.

We read the bottle and set up the hospital tank (10 gallon) using substrate and the filter from the main tank (since you have to take it out for the meds) and decided that since we knew the ick was in the tank, that we would move the shrimp to the hospital tank and medicate the main tank. (the meds would kill the shrimp and they can't get ick anyway) I know it would hurt the helpful bacteria, but I didn't want to cure the fish just to have it flare up again. Plus, the hospital tank is way small for the number of fish we had. So, we do that, then give the main tank the "tetra" dose. Also raise the temp a little to speed up the life cycle of the ick.

We also notice we got a mystery fish, probably with the tetras. He's about half the size of the tetras, is sort of transparent like they are, but kind of a yellow-ish tan color. No other markings (yet). His tail is rounded, though, not forked like most tetras. We dub him "little guy."

Monday: I notice our gourami is bloated and his fins are clamped. Great. Not sure if we overfed, if he's constipated or if he has dropsy. *sigh* Decide not to feed the tank for a day to see if that helps. Lost a few more tetras, but the others don't seem to be in distress, but spotty. One cory is just sitting on the bottom of the tank. I know corys can be sensitive to ick meds, so after a careful examination of the fish, we move him to the 10 gal with the shrimps. Within a few hours, he's doing much better. Dose the tank again.

Tuesday: Lost the rest of our tetras. Ouch. Gourami doesn't seem to be any better, but not any worse either. Corys are a little lethargic, decide to drop a few cory pellets in there and within seconds they are perked up. Also notice white spots on the corys, well I expected that.

Called the fish store to let them know about the ick. They think that the water temp probably dropped enough to make the tetras sick since they are smaller and more sensitive. He checks his tanks, no ick there. I ask about the meds and he says that it's a good kind. I ask about the gourami, but he only said what I thought, that it might be one of many things. Offers to replace the tetras, but I don't think we'll risk the drive again.

Wednesday: Gourami is looking much better, nice and slim again, but fins are still sort of clamped. We put a little food in there for him and Little guy. Little guy is the only "tetra" to make it. He hides so much that we just about decide he's dead somewhere, then he'll turn up. Silly thing. Corys about the same. Shrimp and one cory in 10 gallon are fine. No spots on that cory either. Funny to watch them fight over the cory pellets!

We do a partial water change (as directed on the QuICK Cure bottle at day three) then do the full dose since we no longer have tetras.

Thursday: Gourami seems lethargic and hangs around one spot of the tank. Corys look less spotted then before. Little Guy is still in there and getting much bigger (obviously fry). He's looking more yellow-tan and has a tiny red mark by his gills and a tiny black mark by his anal fin.

Friday: Corys have no more spots. Good! The ick has fallen off and now I know we can kill it. They are swimming around and eating just fine. 10 gallon tank is doing well also and Little Guy is fine. Gourami is not. He's sinking to the bottom of the tank and tipping over (literally just laying on the bottom of the tank on his side). #%&#*!!! I look up swim bladder issues. Hubby and I discuss it and decide to move the cory that's in the 10 gallon back and move the gourami to the 10 gallon with the shrimps. I don't know if the meds caused the issue or not, but he's never had any spots on him, so I think he's safe to move. We also cook a couple of peas, smash them a bit and threw them in there in case it's constipation. Dose the main tank again.

Today: Corys are fine. Haven't seen Little Guy yet, but that's normal. Gourami is doing much better. He's not sinking to the bottom or tipping to the side, although he does seem to still be struggling a little. His fins are not clamped at all though, so that's good. We decide that if we want to restock the tetras, we'll risk getting them at the Petco or Petsmart an hour away (and quarantine them in the 10 gallon, obviously), but not until everything else is cleared up.


So, that's caught you up with everything. Any other advice on the Gourami? Like I said, he's doing better today, but I'm not sure if that's because of being out of the meds or because of the peas. Most of the peas are still in there and the shrimps seem to have claimed them. I don't know if he ate any or not.

Also, any idea what Little Guy might be? I can't get a pic because he's just too small and my camera isn't great. But he's slightly smaller then a tetra now, kind of a yellow-tan color and sort of transparent. Small smudge of red by gills and small, yet more defined, black spot on body at the front of the anal fin. Body type is very tetra-like, but with a rounded tail fin.

Also, our Nitrates test between 5 and 10. What, if anything, can we do to raise it a little?

 

[joel.uejio]

Wow, quite a bummer -- but sounds like you're working hard to get things righted.

Are you using a liquid-based test kit? If you're using strips they may not be giving an accurate reading on ammonia and nitrite. If you do have some of those present, that might explain why your fish are getting sick. Ammo and nitrite don't directly cause disease, but they weaken fish and allow the disease to take hold.

Apart from that, you can try a mix of salt and high temp to fight ich -- there are stickies on that in the illness section.

Good luck! Try not to get discouraged!

Edit: You don't need to raise nitrates -- the lower the amount, the better for the fish.

 

[mizzie]

joel.uejio, thanks for replying. Yes, we use an API liquid test kit, so I'm pretty sure the tests are accurate. We did raise the temp to fight the ick, but we decided not to add salt because I've read that corys can be sensitive to it.

I had heard that around 20 was the preferred level of nitrates, but maybe I'm wrong on that.

 

[joel.uejio]

For nitrates the recommendation is no more than 20. Nitrates are also bad for fish -- just not nearly as bad as ammonia and nitrite.

Another thing I can think of, dwarf gouramis are known for sometimes having problems with disease, so he may be the "culprit". I think salt may actually be fine with cories -- you may want to post a thread in the illness forum to get some help from the ich experts.

You can also continue with the meds you have -- hopefully that plus frequent water changes will help things get better.

 

[LeahK]

Right, 20 for nitrate is a minimum, not a recommendation. Since plants consume nitrate like fertilizer, some people with planted tanks have 0.

Sorry to hear about your losses! You're clearly working hard (and driving long distances) to save your fish. I highly doubt that the lfs owner was right about having no ich in his tanks. Either he doesn't notice it, or he doesn't care.

I do think that most of your problems are due to the ich, but I'm also concerned about the ammonia reading 0. Did you transfer any bacteria from a cycled tank when you set this one up? That's the only way I could imagine you having no ammonia. Any time I have ever dealt with a cycling tank, containing fish, my ammonia levels begin rising within the first day or so. Fish are releasing ammonia almost all the time.

The gourami's problems sound very much like ammonia poisoning--clamped fins, loss of balance, laying on the bottom of the tank. Here's some info from a few websites, describing ammonia poisoning:

"In some cases fish may be observed laying at the bottom of the tank with clamped fins....Internal damage is occurring to the brain, organs, and central nervous system. The fish begins to hemorrhage internally and externally, and eventually dies."
-- http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/ammoniapoison.htm

"The most obvious symptoms of ammonia poisoning are a loss of equilibrium, hyperexcitability, increased respiration and oxygen uptake, and increased heart rate. At extreme ammonia levels, fish may experience convulsions, coma, and death."
-- http://www.seahorse.com/index.php?o...Itemid=218&func=view&id=698&view=flat&catid=2

Hope that helps! Are you doing large water changes? These will help keep ammonia levels down. And when you use the test, do you count drops, and add them in the right order, shake the vial, and wait the right amount of time and all that?

 

[mizzie]

It is a planted tank, so maybe that's why nitrates are low.

As far as the ammonia, I'm sure that's right. No, we didn't seed the main tank from an already cycled tank, but we did do the fish-less method of cycling a tank using pure ammonia (and yes, I'm 100% sure it's pure, nothing added) bringing the ammonia levels up to 5 every day until they started being 0, 24 hours after adding the ammonia. Then we kept at it until the nitrites also tested 0. It took over a month. And yes, I'm sure we are using the test kit correctly, I'm a stickler for reading directions.

When we set up the 10 gallon "hospital" tank, we used substrate and the filter from the 29 gallon main tank, so the helpful bacteria are in that tank as well.

We did do a 50% water change a few days ago, but that was because the QuICK Cure suggested it after day 3 of treatment.

You're right, it does sound like ammonia poisoning, but the only way that is possible is if our test kit suddenly went bad or something. It detected the ammonia and nitrites just fine when we were cycling the tank. I don't think that's the case.


ETA: I forgot to add that we also use Prime, in case that makes a difference.

 

[Cluunox]

i have seen twice where you said you took the filter off the 29g and moved it to the other tank. what filtration do you have on the 29 now? If you removed some or most of your filtering on the 29 that may have caused a minincycle and/or cut the o2 down with higher temps and the medication.

just some thoughts.

 

[LeahK]

....but we did do the fish-less method of cycling a tank using pure ammonia (and yes, I'm 100% sure it's pure, nothing added) bringing the ammonia levels up to 5 every day until they started being 0, 24 hours after adding the ammonia. Then we kept at it until the nitrites also tested 0. It took over a month.

Ah, I get it. Ignore what I said earlier then. I thought, when I read your first post, that you added all the fish with the intention of cycling with them--but you already did a fishless cycle.

So, I actually don't think it's ammonia poisoning then. Or, at least, if it is, it didn't happen in your tank--it happened at the lfs or during shipping. Also, dwarf gouramis have a bad reputation for being sickly, because they are bred in great numbers from unhealthy stock.

Sounds like this lfs sold you a lot of problems! I think you're doing the right thing--clear up the ich first, and then think about restocking.

You should take a look at the vendors forum here on AC. I know that Msjinkzd sometimes sells small fish like rasboras and tetras. And there are other people here who either breed their own fish, or who take more time to quarantine and treat the fish they sell. Buying directly from a breeder or from a reputable seller gives you a much better chance of getting healthy fish. If you're on the continental US, shipping shouldn't be a problem.

 

[mizzie]

what filtration do you have on the 29 now?

At the moment, just the "sponge" filter (the one you never replace). We had to remove the carbon filter because it'll filter out the ick meds. According to the directions, it should be replaced 24 hours after the last treatment, so probably tomorrow. I think we will treat one more time tonight just to make sure we get all the ick larva.

Ah, I get it. Ignore what I said earlier then. I thought, when I read your first post, that you added all the fish with the intention of cycling with them--but you already did a fishless cycle.
[snip]
Sounds like this lfs sold you a lot of problems! I think you're doing the right thing--clear up the ich first, and then think about restocking.

No worries, I should have mentioned that it's a cycled tank. I guess it could be possible that he's having the issues from being in the bag, but I would have thought it would have turned up earlier. :huh:

Yes, it does seem they sold us a lot of problems, which is a real shame because I did do research on them and they are supposed to be a really great store. I know know if I just got unlucky or if the long drive was the issue. But yeah, we aren't going to risk that again if we restock tetras. If we do get more, it won't be until all the issues clear up.


Any ideas what our mystery fish is? I just want to make sure he's compatible with the rest of the fish and get him buddies if he's a schooling fish.

 

[LeahK]

Any ideas what our mystery fish is? I just want to make sure he's compatible with the rest of the fish and get him buddies if he's a schooling fish.

The black skirt tetra has a black anal fin. But they still have forked tails....
I'm curious to see him--Try and post a pic, even if you can't get a very clear one.