Mafia #98: The Grinch Returns -- The Play

Seemed a bit early to be saying that FF has been acting so different that he is scum, especially considering that the course of the game thus far has been a bit slow.



Nice shot! LOL

Bally, you skipped the above post that was made 3 minutes after Rich's post. "Nice shot! LOL" was in response to LR posting DD was an evil elf. What do you think the LOL means? Should we ask JP? Personally when I read it it struck me as laughing at the scum for taking out one of their own.
 
If you had read the sign up thread, you would have seen that I stated I wasn't planning on playing this game as it is pretty hectic around here and I don't really have the time to play properly. However, when I saw LR post that she needed more players I remembered that not only did she play my game but also contacted Dag so I could reach a number that I needed with my format. I then decided I should support Labby's game and do the best I can.

You keep going back to my thoughts about how the 3 way tie kept coming up. I stated, and this is the third time, my head was fuzzy. Sat. I learned that my alma matter made it to the AA championship. I therefore spent a Sat. night dancing with scotch. You would have a fuzzy head as well. Does this answer your question satisfactorily?
Sorry...I don't keep up with the sign up thread usually.

As far as the scotch answering my question...I guess so if that is your way of explaining your flawed logic. I can see how scotch may have a temporary effect. I do have to say, I like your more recent posts better than those from the first couple of days.

Neither did I, Dawg. You weren't hoping I'd UD instead, were you? :silly:
That reamains to be seen.
 
Bally, you skipped the above post that was made 3 minutes after Rich's post. "Nice shot! LOL" was in response to LR posting DD was an evil elf. What do you think the LOL means? Should we ask JP? Personally when I read it it struck me as laughing at the scum for taking out one of their own.

It didn't discuss who shot the shot directly hence why I skipped it. Yes the LOL could be laughing at the scum for taking out one of their own, or it could be looked at in the opposite light that it was a damnit laugh. Like "HA!....no way what're the chances."
 
Well, that nightfall sucked!
Sorry, Dun...I just couldn't get past the whole not wanted to vote the person you felt mafia unless you HAD to.
Ice, sorry to see you go!

so far it appears that these people have voted side by side:

Rich + FF: 1st Dun, and then Bally.
Me + Dawg: Dun both nights.
Pap + Ice: 2h, then Dun

Both nights FF had the first vote, and then never moved it.

Dun was the only one to retract twice, and he retracted from me and then FF.

Nobody beside Dun retracted from a player when others were voting for them. (I.E only lone votes have been retracted)

I don't see anything signifigant in this, and after 1 night it probobly means nothing.
UN, what are you trying to say here? Do you think the evil would vote side by side?

After reading through today's events, a couple of things stand out. Most obvious is the many back and forth posts between JP, LG and Dun. In regards to this I noticed that JP also posted and questioned to Bally and Dawg when he showed up. Dun stayed relatively constant in his responses. LG, made one post referring to Bally, but only after JP had posted about Bally. Even when responding to FF's post about his concerns with the votes piling up so lopsided on Dun she managed to continue to direct attention to Dun.

It seems to me that G has been following JP around but not wanting the town to focus anywhere but on Dun. Would you care to comment on that LG?

I realize that LG voted DD, but, that cannot be credited to her since as late as her vote came it was more of a "oh crap I need to avoid UD" vote. It could just as easily be a "why would I vote for the victim of the scum hit if I am scum" vote. WIFOM I know but with the way the last two game days have played out I don't see much else but WIFOM.

Bally, I don't care how hard you try to explain it, your story over the whole "everyone was confused about who made the hit" has changed each time you explained it. Unless I missed it, you have yet to really answer the one question that several have asked. Why did you single Rich out as being the only one who knew who made the hit?
I like how you are trying to make it look like I was the only one questioning him and turn the whole thing on me. Yep, I questioned him ALOT I can't help that I feel not wanting to vote the person you feel the scummiest as a scummy move. As far as "following" Pap around, see it how you want I made all posts and all thoughts on my own regardless of what anyone else said, obviously Pap felt the same as I.

Okay, bear in mind the time stamps on posts I see are Pacific. G spent the morning hammering at Dun for switching his vote to 2H in order to save his bacon. Something I believe we have all done when innocent. I believe I have done that about 50% of the time that I have been in that situation.

At around noon she asks Kashta a question.

She pulls Dun's D1 vote for UN and points out what he already answered for on D1 about voting UN then making a case on FF. Stating that he was trying to through FF out there to bring attention to him.

Around 2 she asks Dun his thoughts on Kashta, then spends the afternoon making sure that we don't miss seeing him in an unfavorable light.

G, The only time I have seen you post as you have today is when we were scum together. I don't have anything solid but my gut sure isn't feeling real comfortable with you right now.
Again, you are trying to make it look as thought I was the only one questioning him..nice diversion there Wizard. I did not spend the morning "hammering" him about his vote switch to save himself, I brought it up YES, I said why it can be looked at as a scum move, others commented what their thoughts were on it and that was that. It wasn't what caused suspicions of him, but yes..it did add to it.
I love when people what to say "this is just what you did when we played evil together" wanting to "plant that seed" in others minds..whatever, I question people and when I think they are scum I continue to question them rather I'm evil or innocent.

Since you brought up my question to Dun about his thoughts on Kash, what are yours at this point?
 
I'm assuming that this was one of the townie's special roles, any hints on what it does? Sounds like a team switch to me (but that would be kinda op if a townie has the same power as Jack Frost)
YEp, that's what I assume too (a "special" role) wish there was something saying what the "special roles" do, or can do so we knew what to expect happen.

Not good! I just hope Jack knew what they were doing.
I hope so too Dawg, I don't quite understand why they would use it on night two...but hopefully it was someone good at reading others and they knew what they were doing!
 
Sorry I dropped off the earth both my computers at home got slammed with a virus, that was one crappy nightfall. My IT guy is working on getting my lap top working again so I can get on line at home. I will give this a read at lunch time and see what is to be seen.
 
I'm going to clear up a few things here Wizard, so others will see some of what you say is not exactly what happened.

Okay, bear in mind the time stamps on posts I see are Pacific. G spent the morning hammering at Dun for switching his vote to 2H in order to save his bacon. Something I believe we have all done when innocent. I believe I have done that about 50% of the time that I have been in that situation.

At around noon she asks Kashta a question.

She pulls Dun's D1 vote for UN and points out what he already answered for on D1 about voting UN then making a case on FF. Stating that he was trying to through FF out there to bring attention to him.

Around 2 she asks Dun his thoughts on Kashta, then spends the afternoon making sure that we don't miss seeing him in an unfavorable light.

G, The only time I have seen you post as you have today is when we were scum together. I don't have anything solid but my gut sure isn't feeling real comfortable with you right now.
First we haven't ALL done it when innocent, I'm not really sure I ever have...and yes you have, and I have questioned you one it when you did..funny how you don't bring that up as a norm for me, as you feel you need to say I am playing how I played with evil with you. As far as that goes, funny you don't mention how Pap has done EXACTLY what he is doing when evil, I'm pretty sure you were on our team when he helped to take out our hole team making himself look "golden". Now having said that I'm not decided on what I think Pap is as he does this innocent and evil alike, but the fact you want to single me out is kinda odd to me.

i think we really need to start looking at who voted 2h and why at this point. let's see...

going by the rules, DD being hit would suggest she was the non-communicating elf and i had no choice but to switch my vote to save me own behind last minute. i'm thinking one way or another, someone who voted UN had to know they were voting someone who wasn't communicating scum. ice tied up the votes, wiz tied up the votes, but pappy happened to vote to put 2h in the lead. does this indicate anything? i dunno... but it's worthy of a look in my book.
This post right here, is what brought up the "I voted to save myself", I had noticed it and kept it in the back of my mind, but not really worth bringing up just something to keep in mind. Then he posted this, and when someone brings to attention something they did adding "to save my own butt" it draws my attention of course. I did not bring it up on my own and without reason.

Going back and bringing the vote counts and how it played out, I know others have "said" what happened, but without actually seeing it...it's hard to know if they are correct.

5pm, 3 hours before nightfall we have ALL single votes...


Then Dun, Dawg and Ice all vote, and form the three way tie...


With an hour and a half left to go, Kash comes in and breaks the tie giving UN the lead.


Pap votes 2H bringing a tie to 2H and UN, then Rich moves to cause another three way


Half our left till nightfall and still a 3 way..


11 minutes left UN, moves his vote tie it up on Dun and 2H and removes himself from the 3way.


Dun moves his vote to 2H saving himself and getting 2H lynched.

UN and Dun both moved to save themselves from the look of it, which of course leaves the question why not if innocent let the tie go and take your chance, or did they REALLY think the person they switched to was evil
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You then try to say I brought up Dun's day one vote, when in fact I brought up ALL day one votes and how they went down, who switched and when. I did NOT single out Duns day one vote as you are trying to make it appear. Nice try though Wizard:grinyes:
 
No surprise, but there's nothing more go on after rereading the posts. The roles being random doesn't help either. Scum could be anywhere.

From the singletons, I would question Rich and 2H for offering up good players at random this early on. That could hurt us if they're not evil. Between the current tying votes on UN, Dun, and 2H... nothing strikes me as particularly sinister in the votes.

Less than 2 hrs... I could add FF, Pappy, Rich, DD, or LG to the tie. FF is too easy and not around to post. And Pappy, Rich, DD, and LG are too valuable to lose for no reason, if it's a mistake.

Or vote UN, Dun, or 2H to break the tie with lots of time to gauge responses. Or add someone new to the running.

For now, I vote to lynch UN as a random pick to break the tie. And to see what happens, if anything, as a result.
Kash, I know you answered all questions about this vote/post. I don't have a question so much as a comment. This entire post has that "covering your butt" feel to it, weighing all options (which yes is good to do) but the way you are so "detailed" about every thought in this gives it a eery feeling to me, more like which will I get questioned the least for voting.
Sorry if what I posted about my Day 1 vote confused everyone. Then, not being able to get back to expand my thoughts or answer the questions raised just left that hanging for you all.

I couldn't find a satisfactory suspect, so I went with something fairly random. By that, it's "random" to me whether I pick one reason over another without much conviction either way when it's that early in a game. Anyhow, let me post my thought process for what I probably should have termed more of a process of elimination rather than "random" pick.

1. I read the thread again, couldn't find anything solid (IMO) to place my vote. At the time, there had been an 8-way tie and Labby wanted to use Zaffy's 8-side dice. I figured I'd just randomly pick someone to vote. So I went to random.org and that site wanted me to vote AAF. (Big congrats there, AAF.) I actually didn't like the idea of adding a 9th name to list of vote-getters when the voting was real spread out to begin with.

2. With that in mind, I looked to see who was voting whom and why. The 8-way tie had become a 3-way tie then between UN, Dun, and 2H. At least that development gave us something to look at and I figured there were some options to decide my vote.

Option 1 - Look at the singleton votes for someone hiding out who didn't want to get noticed. There were 2 votes/reasons I thought should be questioned.... Rich voting Pappy for no real reason and 2H voting Rich for being unlynchable. Pappy and Rich are both good players who aren't exactly expendable if they're innocent. And if they're scum, I doubt any of us are gonna spot that from their posts Day 1. One thing I didn't like about the singleton voters as possible suspects was it isn't only scum who tends to hide in a game like this. We have a lot of PRs too who might try to avoid drawing attention to themselves.

Option 2 - Focus on the people who placed a second vote on someone and why..... that was Dun, Dawg, and Ice... the second votes caused a tie. Didn't see anything suspicious there so I was left still with Rich or 2H for a vote or keep looking for something else.

I thought about just picking one of them but felt either vote would be weak/unhelpful. Rich voting a top player without reason wasn't a huge deal... Rich is often a cantankerous player anyway. Him voting Pappy just because isn't unreasonable, from him, and didn't mean Rich must be evil. Same thing with 2H though.... him voting someone for what I termed was a garbage reason isn't uncharacteristic for him, considering his previous choices in other games. In both cases, it was a good "reason" to question these votes, but not a great reason upon which to base a vote.

Option 3 - I looked to see who hadn't voted yet. That was Pappy, me, and LG. No big deal there. It wasn't scummy to not have a vote in yet.... though nightfall was coming up and there wasn't much for us to go on.

This is when I wondered what would happen if someone broke the tie and I decided to just pick one of the 3 randomly. I looked at UN and really just hated his OMGUS vote/attitude. I felt he could/should have tried to actually help the town better than that. Dun didn't strike me as being suspicious over the comments he'd made so I had no reason to pick him. 2H was still there but I'd already decided voting him for his unlynchable vote wasn't a very strong case for scum. It's more an assessment of his general game play.

So yes, it was an elimination process I went through to narrow things down, but voting UN (for being OMGUSSY) instead of voting Rich (for voting a good player) or 2H (for voting good player) seemed like a random/arbitrary thing to me, even on Day 1.



2H citing a garbage reason for voting someone isn't all that unusual. I felt it worth asking about but not vote-worthy all by itself. Besides, there were a lot of non-reasons given for day 1 votes..... not just from 2H. Why would I single him out for that and ignore all the others? When I didn't see anything worthwhile looking at the votes/reasons, I decided to just break the tie instead. The tied players were 2H, Dun, and UN..... so that's where my pick fell.



No, not at all. Seriously, it was day 1. I could've voted anyone for any reason at all.... so could Ice, so could most anyone else in the game. I just felt adding another useless vote to a pile of other useless votes just because we can think up a defendable reason if questioned later was lame. Breaking the tie seemed like a better strategy at the time, particularly as day 1 ties are notorious for including nothing but innocent townies against other innocent townies in the running. This made it more important for me to break the tie to see if I could shake things up.
Again, over detailed as to your "thought process", you were sure to cover each and every angel.

1 - A lot of other people gave us non-reasons for their votes, too, Pappy. So no. I didn't think voting 2H for that would help us any more than another equally weak vote on many other choices who were just as likely innocent as scum. Of course, a 2H vote at the time would also have broken the tie which I thought might prove useful so yes, that would also have accomplished the tie break. Ultimately, I didn't know who was scum, didn't have an actual suspect to vote, and picked UN over 2H. I could have just as easily voted 2H over UN. At the time, both were pretty much the same to me.

2 - Pappy, your second question there has me stumped. I could've sworn I'd seen something in the thread where Dun's reason for voting UN could have also applied to FF but Dun overlooked that. Now, I can't find it. Whatever I was thinking must not have come out right. I have no idea now.

The only thing that comes close is this post from Dawg. I may have misread Dawg's post.
Now, this post makes me feel a bit better...explained, to the point and not overly "covering my butt", but can you explain a bit how 2H and UN were pretty much the same to you?
This was right above the post you pulled of Dawgs, and I'm thinking it may be the one you were thinking of. He voted UN, but added FF with a reason to "watch him" more or less.
i vote to lynch UN for retaliation voting. it's the best i've got. normally by now FF has made a good case for himself, but with him "busy" he's a little tougher to single out. although... that could say something of his role in this game in and of itself.

With all the time it took you to make that very well thought out post about your vote, I wish you could of been more to the point like with the response to Pap, so we could of maybe got some actual thoughts from you on other players.
 
UN (2) - FF (#22), Dun (#87), Kash (#92)
FF (0) - UN (#58)
Dun (4) - AAF (#62), Dawg (#88), Rich (#97), UN (#115)
Pappy (0) - Rich (#67)
Rich (1) - 2H (#71)
2H (5) - DD (#73), Ice (#89), Pappy (#96), Wiz (#116), Dun (#132)
DD (2) - Bally (#76), LG (#129)
LG (0) - Wiz (#80)

Everyone has voted.

Final vote count:
UN (0)- Ice (#162)
Dun (6)- FF (#176), Ice (#238), UN (#280), LG (#300), Dawg (#304), Pappy (#321)
FF (0) - Dun (#223)
Bally (3) - Wiz (#232), Rich (#240), AAF (#243)
Pappy (2) - Dun (#285), Bally (#375)
AAF (1) - Kash (#368)

Everyone has voted.

so far it appears that these people have voted side by side:

Rich + FF: 1st Dun, and then Bally.
Me + Dawg: Dun both nights.
Pap + Ice: 2h, then Dun

Both nights FF had the first vote, and then never moved it.

Dun was the only one to retract twice, and he retracted from me and then FF.

Nobody beside Dun retracted from a player when others were voting for them. (I.E only lone votes have been retracted)

I don't see anything signifigant in this, and after 1 night it probobly means nothing.

I actually am more interested in seeing what we KNOW from these nightfall votes. Who voted side by side really means nothing to me at this point as it would of been easy for evil to hide in any votes because of the way things played out and I don't think they would vote together at this point with so many options.
Night one-
Votes for 2H=2H (5) - DD (#73), Ice (#89), Pappy (#96), Wiz (#116), Dun (#132)
So we know Doll was NC evil, Ice and Dun were both innocent. That leaves Pap and Wizard to be possible evils on 2H...Pap tied it between UN and 2H, we know 2H but not UN at this point, when Wizard voted his vote ties it between 2H and Dun...both of which were innocents either of these votes (if UN is innocent would be a great place for evil to be) and not really get called out to much for the vote if the person ends up lynched.
We know no ones role that was on Dun or UN at this point, but either one would of been a "safe" place to vote.

Night two-
Dun-(6)-FF (#176), Ice (#238), UN (#280), LG (#300), Dawg (#304), Pappy (#321)
The only thing we know for sure on this is Ice was innocent, and Dun voted Pap...but I think that was more out of frustration then anything so not putting alot of weight on that. What does interest me though, Pap why did you wait so long to vote Dun, you had been drilling him all day (along with myself), but you waited till the very end to vote him, even after calling him out for not voting his highest suspect.
I also would like to add to Kash, night one you "weighed" all your options for your vote, now I know you are busy and working so going through all the posts may not of been able to happen, but did you even look for the vote count this night? I'm asking because it "appeared" so important to you night one
 
wiz, i also find it interesting that you singling out LG. it seems like your trying to get people to jump on her and forget that jpap is doing the same thing. kind of makes me think of scum protecting a team mate. so wiz why are you singling out LG and not even bringing up jpap?
 
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