New Tank/Nitrifying Bacteria/Dr. Tim's

However, the tank has shown no ammonia whatsoever, or nitrite. I did test nitrate last night as well and that was 0 at this point. I'm wondering if either the plants I've added have sucked it up before it accumulates or if there has been no cycling at all... but my guess would be that, if there were no bacteria consuming wastes in the tank I'd have to have ammonia accumulating at this point, from the fish themselves giving off ammonia.

So far so good I guess. I did have cloudy water last night, this could have been from me moving plants around in the new sand as well, but still had good readings, everything was 0, although it looked like ammonia may have hit .25, my biggest complaint with the API kit is that the difference between 0 and .25 is sometimes difficult to determine. It was just a touch lighter than the typical yellow 0 reading though.

Anyhow, water cleared up this morning, and I'll check readings again after work.

Your live plants are going to factor in to this "test" significantly. Plants require nitrogen, and aquatic plants (most of them) prefer ammonium, not nitrate. In fact, tests have shown that when ammonia/ammonium is used up, plants seem to turn next to nitrite and only then to nitrate. The reason is that for plants to use the nitrate, they first must change it back into ammonium and this uses energy that the plants would rather use elsewhere.

Plants are also faster at taking up ammonia than the bacteria, so in a real sense plants out-compete bacteria for most of the ammonia/ammonium. This means that less gets changed into nitrite (you will not see nitrite above zero in planted tanks ever, unless something else is out) and then less nitrite into nitrate. Eventually nitrate may show up, depending upon the fish load. Many low-tech planted tank aquarists have zero nitrate, others less than 10 ppm. It should never be over this, unless nitrate is being added as plant fertilizers or, again, there is a real problem with the biological balance. So while the plants are not "sucking up" the nitrate, they are the reason you are not seeing it.

Byron.
 
Great info Byron. I was just able to find some great articles you wrote pertaining to plants and the nitrogen cycle. Very helpful indeed. Its been years since I've kept live plants, so my memory and understanding of their interaction with the nitrogen cycle was very rusty. I had the right ideas about what they do, however, I now have a much better understanding.

I certainly didn't realize that there was as much of an overwhelming benefit to keeping plants as there seems to be. It seems that, essentially, keeping plants keeps fish healthy by keeping water parameters stable and healthy. Essentially, my understanding now is that I should not have ammonia or nitrite problems or even nitrate problems with a decent stock of plants and a lower ph.

I did not realize that bit about nitrifying bacteria going dormant in ph under 6.0 either. I added the plants slowly over the past week after using Dr. Tims, so I guess I don't know then if it was the low ph, Dr. Tim's, or the plants conditioning my new tank to its current readings of 0 ammonia/nitrite/nitrate.

Oddly enough, the first few days the tank was up and running, before adding much of anything, the ph was at about 7-7.5 of I recall. I suppose I should leave some tap water out over night, off gas it to then see its true ph.

On a separate note, the tank I bought, the guy gave me a very bright Breamwork LED light. I understand that different plants do well in different light spectrums as do corals in Sw etc... I brought the light down to my local LFS and the guy told me that they light is actually a SW light but that it is so bright that it didn't matter and that I would be able to grow anything I wanted because of its output, despite that its technically a SW light that hasmore blue spectrum to it... do youhave any info you could share with me regarding that? I want to be sure I can grow the right plants.

Thanks!
 
Great info Byron. I was just able to find some great articles you wrote pertaining to plants and the nitrogen cycle. Very helpful indeed. Its been years since I've kept live plants, so my memory and understanding of their interaction with the nitrogen cycle was very rusty. I had the right ideas about what they do, however, I now have a much better understanding.

I certainly didn't realize that there was as much of an overwhelming benefit to keeping plants as there seems to be. It seems that, essentially, keeping plants keeps fish healthy by keeping water parameters stable and healthy. Essentially, my understanding now is that I should not have ammonia or nitrite problems or even nitrate problems with a decent stock of plants and a lower ph.

Thank you indeed. And yes to your last sentence. The fish load is a major factor, as it is certainly possible to over-power the plants' capability. But provided things are balanced, they will remain so unless we interfere.

I did not realize that bit about nitrifying bacteria going dormant in ph under 6.0 either. I added the plants slowly over the past week after using Dr. Tims, so I guess I don't know then if it was the low ph, Dr. Tim's, or the plants conditioning my new tank to its current readings of 0 ammonia/nitrite/nitrate.

This is true. You are creating a decided advantage for the fish by having live plants from day one, and with an acidic pH. I have never "cycled" my tanks, provided I have live plants which I always do, and I have never seen ammonia or nitrite, and nitrate settles out around 5 ppm.

Oddly enough, the first few days the tank was up and running, before adding much of anything, the ph was at about 7-7.5 of I recall. I suppose I should leave some tap water out over night, off gas it to then see its true ph.

There are a couple possible reasons for this, but we do need to know the true tap water pH so your test will give us this. BTW, you can out-gas the CO2 by very vigorously shaking a small container of tap water for a few moments. Saves waiting, lol.

On a separate note, the tank I bought, the guy gave me a very bright Breamwork LED light. I understand that different plants do well in different light spectrums as do corals in Sw etc... I brought the light down to my local LFS and the guy told me that they light is actually a SW light but that it is so bright that it didn't matter and that I would be able to grow anything I wanted because of its output, despite that its technically a SW light that hasmore blue spectrum to it... do youhave any info you could share with me regarding that? I want to be sure I can grow the right plants.

Can you post a link to some data on this light, perhaps from the manufacturer or a retailer? There are two issues here, if what the store fellow said is the case. First, the brightness; if this is beyond the needs of the plants and the nutrient availability, algae will take advantage of the "extra" light intensity. Second, the red wavelength may be minimal; plants need red for photosynthesis, along with blue, and if you have any red or brown leaf plants, they need more red since this is being reflected. It is now believed that green also is important, notwithstanding that it drives photosynthesis very little [see chart attached], but clearly there is something in the mix because plants do seem to grow better with it, all else being the same in tests.

I have always preferred a "cooler" white, which means more blue and less red, and I find that a Kelvin around 6500K provides this. I have experimented over the past six years with various tubes, all in T8 because that is what my fixtures are, and a mix of 6500K such as the Life-Glo along with a higher blue with 10,000-11,000K worked well, or seemed too. I can no longer get the higher K tubes locally, so I now go with just the 6500K and in the generic brands, preferring Sylvania, then GE, then Phillips [I have all three as dual tubes over my three larger tanks]. I do seem to be having much less trouble with algae, interestingly, and since not much else has changed it may well be due to the tubes being more balanced now. Food for thought.

Byron.

absorption-spectrum.jpg
 
Thank you again for all of this info. Always very helpful Byron. Can't tell you how much I appreciate it. When I get home from work tonight, I'll try to gather more info on the light, and shake a jar of water up to get the true ph of the water and post that info.

I have ordered some floating plants, partially because I love the look of them but partially to filter out some of the light. This thing is very bright even just to my naked eyes. Perhaps I can post some pics of the light itself, the LED bulbs if that's helpful at all? I can see white and blue bulbs but I don't know if that means those lights only emit white and blue wavelengths? I have also ordered some red leaved plants as well, so I'd like to try to see if I can properly care for them also.

Lighting is def not an area of expertise for me, so all of this info is great. I want to get it right and grow all kinds of lush plants.

Will update this thread tonight. Thanks again!
 
Thank you again for all of this info. Always very helpful Byron. Can't tell you how much I appreciate it. When I get home from work tonight, I'll try to gather more info on the light, and shake a jar of water up to get the true ph of the water and post that info.

I have ordered some floating plants, partially because I love the look of them but partially to filter out some of the light. This thing is very bright even just to my naked eyes. Perhaps I can post some pics of the light itself, the LED bulbs if that's helpful at all? I can see white and blue bulbs but I don't know if that means those lights only emit white and blue wavelengths? I have also ordered some red leaved plants as well, so I'd like to try to see if I can properly care for them also.

Lighting is def not an area of expertise for me, so all of this info is great. I want to get it right and grow all kinds of lush plants.

Will update this thread tonight. Thanks again!

You are very welcome. I will look for your info and hopefully be able to offer something constructive. Looking at the light won't tell us anything, the white LEDs cold be warm or cool, but when you get the data see if you can find a web site with info. It is sounding a bit marine-oriented. B.
 
Update: Wasn't home very long last night, didn't have time to figure out which Breamworks LED I have but I did check my water parameters again, as well as the ph of the tank and a jar of water I vigorously shook up.

Ammonia rose to .50 somehow, 0 nitrite, ph in the tank was 6.0 or less as was the water in the shaken jar... not sure how I got a 7.0-7.5 ph when I first set up the tank, but in the event that I didn't shake the jar well enough I will also fill a jar with tap water and leave it off gassing for 24 hours and check that as well. When I have that info and when I can track down more light info I'll post it back here

Thanks!
 
Ok, well I am able to confirm that the water comes out of the tap at 7.5 or so. My understanding is that, while the ph here is high out of the tap, there is also ammonia in the tap water and that because the water is so soft, once its in the tank, the soft water drastically drops the ph?
 
Ok, well I am able to confirm that the water comes out of the tap at 7.5 or so. My understanding is that, while the ph here is high out of the tap, there is also ammonia in the tap water and that because the water is so soft, once its in the tank, the soft water drastically drops the ph?

We need more information. Can you give us the GH and KH (Alkalinity) of your tap water (get this from the water board website)? And see if they are adding anything to raise the pH; if the water is very soft, they almost certainly will be [I have this here]. And on the ammonia, is this as chloramine, or is there ammonia in the water? Have you tested the tap water alone for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? Without all the data we are just guessing at things.

But while we're waiting for the data...if the water is low in KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) the natural biological processes in an aquarium that break down organics will lower the pH. My tap water is pH 7.0 to 7.2, but the GH and KH are near-zero, so in the tanks the pH remains at 5 (or lower) in some, and in others around 6.2 to 6.4, variable because of factors like plants, fish load, additional organics, etc.

Byron.
 
Ahhh I see. Let me get those other details tonight Byron. I believe I left a glass of tap water out. If I did its been out for a few days. I do have info from the Water Dept. website that I found online. We get our water from the MWRA which is sourced from the Quabbin Resevoir in central MA... Here some of the info I found on their website.

"HARD OR SOFT WATERIs MWRA drinking water hard or soft?
MWRA's drinking water is soft. If you are an MWRA customer, you probably don't need to use special water softeners for your clothes- or dishwashing machines.
Water's "hardness" and "softness" is due to its concentration of minerals –calcium and magnesium. The lower the mineral concentration, the softer the water is. MWRA's drinking water has a hardness of approximately 16 milligrams per liter, or 1 grain per gallon.
Using water that is considered soft, you do not need to use as much dishwashing soap, laundry detergent, or other soaps. Many new dishwashers allow you to set the hardness of the water so that you do not need to use as much soap in comparison to areas that have hard water"


pH OF MWRA WATER
What is the pH of MWRA drinking water?
MWRA treats its drinking water so that it has a pH of approximately 9.3, a slightly alkaline measurement. This pH level helps prevent water from picking up any metal particles that might be in your household plumbing.
Untreated, "raw" water in MWRA's Quabbin Reservoir has a pH of approximately 6.8, close to neutral.
pH measures the amount of hydrogen ion activity in a substance. The pH scale is relative and runs from 0 to 14. 0 is the lowest, and most acidic, pH level. 7 is neutral. 14 is the highest, and most alkaline, pH level.

And here's a direct link to their page with the info I found
http://www.mwra.com/monthly/wqupdate/qual3wq.htm


Also here's a link to the monthly water report if its of any use, prob not but figured I'd link it anyhow lol
http://www.mwra.com/monthly/wqupdate/pdf/cy2014/052014.pdf

Also, if I test the KH and GH on the water I've set out for a few days, the readings should be accurate right? I'd imagine since its testing minerals in the water, the sample would still be valid despite the water having sat out for a few days?


 
Ahhh I see. Let me get those other details tonight Byron. I believe I left a glass of tap water out. If I did its been out for a few days. I do have info from the Water Dept. website that I found online. We get our water from the MWRA which is sourced from the Quabbin Resevoir in central MA... Here some of the info I found on their website.

"HARD OR SOFT WATERIs MWRA drinking water hard or soft?
MWRA's drinking water is soft. If you are an MWRA customer, you probably don't need to use special water softeners for your clothes- or dishwashing machines.
Water's "hardness" and "softness" is due to its concentration of minerals –calcium and magnesium. The lower the mineral concentration, the softer the water is. MWRA's drinking water has a hardness of approximately 16 milligrams per liter, or 1 grain per gallon.
Using water that is considered soft, you do not need to use as much dishwashing soap, laundry detergent, or other soaps. Many new dishwashers allow you to set the hardness of the water so that you do not need to use as much soap in comparison to areas that have hard water"


pH OF MWRA WATER
What is the pH of MWRA drinking water?
MWRA treats its drinking water so that it has a pH of approximately 9.3, a slightly alkaline measurement. This pH level helps prevent water from picking up any metal particles that might be in your household plumbing.
Untreated, "raw" water in MWRA's Quabbin Reservoir has a pH of approximately 6.8, close to neutral.
pH measures the amount of hydrogen ion activity in a substance. The pH scale is relative and runs from 0 to 14. 0 is the lowest, and most acidic, pH level. 7 is neutral. 14 is the highest, and most alkaline, pH level.

And here's a direct link to their page with the info I found
http://www.mwra.com/monthly/wqupdate/qual3wq.htm


Also here's a link to the monthly water report if its of any use, prob not but figured I'd link it anyhow lol
http://www.mwra.com/monthly/wqupdate/pdf/cy2014/052014.pdf

Also, if I test the KH and GH on the water I've set out for a few days, the readings should be accurate right? I'd imagine since its testing minerals in the water, the sample would still be valid despite the water having sat out for a few days?



This is fine. According to the data [see except] they are adding sodium carbonate as I rather suspected. Vancouver does the same, though not as much as the pH is around 7, but this is not problematic. So in your tanks, as it obviuosly has been doing, the pH will naturally lower.
Corrosiveness: In order to minimize the leaching of lead and copper in home plumbing systems, the pH, or corrosivity, is monitored and adjusted. Water provided by MWRA is basically lead free when it leaves the reservoirs but household plumbing can contain lead that can enter tap water through corrosion and leaching. MWRA now treats the water at the Interim Corrosion Control (ICC) facility with sodium carbonate (soda ash) and CO2 (carbon dioxide) to increase the pH and buffering capacity of the water. This has considerably reduced lead levels found when you first use your tap. Bi-monthly pH results are available in the Update.

When you do a water change, test the tank pH prior to the change, and then about an hour after. This is just to determine the fluctuation, if any. Soda ash does not last long.

The water is very soft, as 16 mg/l which equates to 16 ppm is just under 1 dGH. My tap water is slightly less than this, at 7 ppm. Perfect for soft water fish [avoid livebearers and other hard water requiring fish]. Depending upon the plants intended, you may need to up the GH a tad. We can discuss later.

Still need to know the ammonia, etc, so tests tonight will answer that.

Byron.
 
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