20L Stocking - what do you think?

Would a lot of current be bad for the fish? I was thinking about adding another AC30 or upgrading to an AC50 but your post has me wondering if the current will be too strong....
You have to test the filters to assume if the currents are really strong.:) Depending on the fish you get, fish from slow-moving areas and those with generally long trailing fins will, of course, not appreciate the currents if strong. Only fish with streamline body shape or bodies designed to withstand the currents will do. Your betta certainly will not like it but there are a few exceptions applied. Most people claim their bettas like the currents but the norm is they wouldn't especially with very long trailing fins.
 
Ah, see the problem here is that the burden of proof does not lie with my assertion. The burden of proof lies with those who present the statement that I am questioning. That's a simple truth of logic in argument. I am not the one who presents anything as a fact - I said that the fishkeeping world has a lot of bs that is presented as fact, not that I am presenting my hypothesis that corys do fine on their own as a fact. So it is not up to me to show any proof. It's up to the fact makers.

A matter of the scientific method:

One party presents a conclusion - and thus must show solid, irrefutable data to indicate that position as being a fact rather than a hypothesis.

In this case that corys need to be in groups of four or more.

Another party demands proof of that conclusion's basis in fact. Thus solid data, not presentation of credentials or the simple "because everyone who knows their stuff agrees," sort of thing. It has to be solid, irrefutable evidence if there is meant to be an entitlement of fact. This means that any burden of proof lies squarely on the first party.

In other words, I don't have to tell you why it's not - you have to tell me why it is.


The post that nh5 was responding to, posted by Lupin, contained the following:

"(corys)...should be kept no less than four."

Now while I am not solidly disagreeing with Lupin, who is a very knowledgeable and helpful forum member, I am questioning the basic knowledge base that the statement is based upon.


How has this numbered been arrived and agreed upon? For this sort of a statement to hold its role as a "fact" there needs to be empirical data that shows these animals' health and overall well being is and can be documented as affected, and noticeably afflicted when kept in groups smaller than four.

Are there lengths of controlled experimental data where corys were kept in varying numbers, and observed as showing any decline in health, longevity, etc when the number four is breeched? Is there anything to show they live a better life, and perhaps a longer life when kept in groups of at least four or greater? Has anyone recorded such data in a proper scientific manner? Or is it merely as you said - "Every major publication I've read has stated 4+ and most recommend 6+. Every major Cory breeder / expert seems to agree." That isn't empirical, scientific data. That is nothing more than the use of supposed credentials to further the basis of an opinion. Good old "expert opinion." While good, it still isn't irrefutable.

Not that I wouldn't lend a lot of faith to what more experienced and knowledgeable people than myself have to say about certain subjects - but without a solid scientific, provable model to show this as absolute fact, it still holds merely as a theory - and many theories get proven untrue in time. Be honest - didn't the medical community once prescribe bleeding as a form of treatment? Think of how many times back in the day that someone might have said, "Um I think bleeding might not be such a great idea," and it was followed by people saying, "Oh are you arguing with doctors and people who know about this stuff more than you do? I would trust their expert opinion rather than your layperson's point of view." Look who was proven wrong in the end.


And such experiments that are needed to prove this "corys need groups" hypothesis would actually contain far too any variables such as the fact that fish are very strange animals and can often die very suddenly with no signs of disease and in perfect conditions, any slight variances in water chemistry, etc. So even if such an experiment were to have been carried out, there is simply not enough control to merit a solid workable conclusion.

So my rant here is that while in theory it does seem (just like you noticed the difference in behavior when you expanded your cory army) that corys need groups in order to prosper, that doesn't mean it's true by any scientific fact unless someone presents the data, and the data cannot be refuted. Just seeing a change in behavior does not constitute any real proof that the corys are healthier or happier - only that they are exhibiting a change in behavior due to a differing social dynamic. This is not evidence of any increased happiness or increased health. Nor is it evidence that the corys have a preference one way or another.



The burden of proof lies with those who present conclusions, not with those wordy, snide dorks like me who accuse them of spreading a bunch of bs without factual basis.

I feel no need to enter into a long debate on this. I agree with your scientific approach, but unfortunately I have a day job. You did however replace the word "should" with "need" which changes the context quite a bit. I should eat vegatables, but I don't need to. Also, it's not emperical evidence and purely my own observations, but I had 2 in a tank for a couple months and added 2 more (on the advice received here) and there was a marked change in their behavior. I've since added 2 more and they act about the same with more of them. With that observation, I choose to accept the "cory theory" as truth. If every response on this board was held to your level of need of proof, I don't believe anyone would receive help they ask for.
 
I feel no need to enter into a long debate on this. I agree with your scientific approach, but unfortunately I have a day job. You did however replace the word "should" with "need" which changes the context quite a bit. I should eat vegatables, but I don't need to. Also, it's not emperical evidence and purely my own observations, but I had 2 in a tank for a couple months and added 2 more (on the advice received here) and there was a marked change in their behavior. I've since added 2 more and they act about the same with more of them. With that observation, I choose to accept the "cory theory" as truth. If every response on this board was held to your level of need of proof, I don't believe anyone would receive help they ask for.

I'm not wanting a long, and probably pointless debate about the corys either.

I did change the words at some point, I see that.

But the point i was making was more about the idea of scientific approach connected with the elements of argument. It was more a response to your post itself rather than the cory debate exactly. Here is what you wrote:

Can a cory survive alone? Absolutely. Are they naturally social animals that thrive and show more of their natural behaiviors and personaluty when kept in groups? Absolutely. Every major publication I've read has stated 4+ and most recommend 6+. Every major Cory breeder / expert seems to agree. I had 2 in a tank originally and witnessed first hand a change in their behavior. So define "bs notion" and the please provide the related data to support you calling it that please.


As you can see, you asked me to provide you with data, not the other way around. So my ridiculously long post...brought upon by long weekend insomnia and my incessant need for debating, was more in reference to that then in the actual cory subject itself.


You do have a point regarding the whole thing about me having some sort of a high scientific standard and that getting in the way of people getting any of the help they need, but please consider that the reason why I feel passionately about there being strong scientific data to back up certain assertions is just exactly so that people do get the right information. Surely no one should disagree that getting the most accurate information is an extremely important element in the whole notion of seeking information! :idea:

I wouldn't be demanding scientific data to prove something that is entirely experiential and has no solid answer - like the debate about say, gouramis and bettas getting along in a tank. But I do see a reason to demand proof of something that is so often repeated as if it is a fact to be followed. People paint the "keep corys in groups" as though you would be making a mistake and compromising the fishes' happiness if you chose to keep only one, two or three corys in a tank. And there is simply no evidence to prove this true. Are there any cases where corys died young or lived an unhealthy life because they were alone or in too small a group? Can it be proven? Maybe I am going way too high in demanding strong evidence to support the theory but, well...if there isn't any real data to support something, people shouldn't be stating it as a fact.


But again - you did say for me to present data!! hehe So 'twas you who put the sciencey thing in my impressionable little head. :silly:


Still - and I say this in the friendliest way (I'm not trying to be antagonistic or negative) - the burden of proof lies with your side of the argument. And no, it can't just be that corys are observed to behave differently in groups. That is still no indication that it is beneficial to them. Pretty much any creature behaves differently in a group. It doesn't mean they are any happier or healthier - just different.
 
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Well what do ya know? My molly had babies and I thought she was just a fat bugger, apparently the rest of the fish must have had a feeding frenzy as I only saw two and the betta gulped one up while I was watching.

Quick question, how long does Prime give false ammonia readings for? Im steady around .25 and I did a 50% change but it still reads .25. How will I know what my true readings are?
 
Heres a pic of one of my Mollies, is this female or male? I have the preggo female one but this is her companion, its way smaller but I can't tell if that anal fin is a male or female one. Its hardly ever fanned out like in the pic unless its stopping itself from the current.
molly.jpg
 
Heres a pic of one of my Mollies, is this female or male? I have the preggo female one but this is her companion, its way smaller but I can't tell if that anal fin is a male or female one. Its hardly ever fanned out like in the pic unless its stopping itself from the current.
molly.jpg
The molly is female. Why does this look skinny?:confused:
 
I know she looks sorta abused, we got her from the LFS. The one from Petsmart looks 5x better. She's sorta timid and scared most of the time. The pregnant Molly always tries to mate with her it seems like, like brushing up and following. I figure with some good care this one will start to look better, I didn't really want to exchange her at the LFS.

A thing I noticed is her fins are always shut closed compared to the pregnant Molly. Im not sure if its just her nerves or somethings wrong, but she doesn't look sick...

Here some more pics, looks like the Betta is picking on the male Platy, but leaves the female alone, not sure what im going to do yet...

PS. I know those aren't aquatic plants. Didn't know until after I bought them, gonna wait until they start to rot and replace them with Java fern and other low light plants
PSS. Is that fin rot on the male platy??

tank.jpg

betta.jpg

mollies.jpg

platy.jpg

tetra.jpg

fish.jpg
 
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A thing I noticed is her fins are always shut closed compared to the pregnant Molly. Im not sure if its just her nerves or somethings wrong, but she doesn't look sick...
It can't be her nerves. There is really something wrong with this fish. Mollies have a tendency to clamp their fins when the water is not right for them and it may not affect all of them at the same time at all. What are your water parameters? pH? Was the tank she was in the pet shop brackish or purely freshwater?

Abused? Can you please explain further her situation in the shop?

PSS. Is that fin rot on the male platy??
Yes. What is your tank maintenance regimen? Was this case of finrot already seen when you bought it from the shop?
 
As of last night after a 50% water change, the Ammonia was at .25, Nitrites 0, Nitrates mid-hue between 5-10 using API water test kit. I believe the Ammonia is a false positive from Prime because before the water change I registered a slight .25 as well which Im guessing is Prime. Tap water parameters are 0/0/0 from last I remember so I think.

I've been doing water changes every other day because I had a Nitrate spike when I just had the Betta, once it got down to <20 I added the other fish. pH is around 7.2 or 7.6, light to almost darker blue hue. On high end PH test its a light light brown.

The platy's tail was fine before, but I've been seeing the betta bully him a lot, I think it maybe due to the Betta nipping him, I maybe have to return the platy for something else. Is finrot a case of poor water parameters? My test kit is about a year old, Im not sure if that ruins its validity...

Oh and I don't think the Molly was really abused, but it was one of those dark LFSs with hundreds of Mollies stuffed into a tank. The owner sorta manhandled her into the catch tray too, scooping like 2-3 mollies up and just pulling one out with his hand to dump into the tray.

Personality wise, the molly just seems timid, she seemed a bit more active this morning. What can I check to find out whats wrong with her?
 
The platy's tail was fine before, but I've been seeing the betta bully him a lot, I think it maybe due to the Betta nipping him, I maybe have to return the platy for something else. Is finrot a case of poor water parameters? My test kit is about a year old, Im not sure if that ruins its validity...
Try a new test kit and test the water parameters again. Correct. Finrot can be caused by poor water quality or if the fins are not treated immediately.
Oh and I don't think the Molly was really abused, but it was one of those dark LFSs with hundreds of Mollies stuffed into a tank. The owner sorta manhandled her into the catch tray too, scooping like 2-3 mollies up and just pulling one out with his hand to dump into the tray.
She sounded abused to me anyway.:(
Personality wise, the molly just seems timid, she seemed a bit more active this morning. What can I check to find out whats wrong with her?
Clamped fins, rapid breathing and listlessness.
 
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