40g stock suggestions

[mcybyk]

After going through some tough times and some losses on my 40g tank, my LSF believes that my root problem is my water. Since setting up my tank in the beginning of Jan., I have lost 1 dwarf gourami, 1 angel, and 2 caucatodies. All of these were added at the end of Jan. and have died in the last 3 weeks. Water is 0 on the ammonia and nitrites, and 10 on the nitrates. What is causing the problems, I come to find, is my ph, which is around an 8 out of the tap.

As a result, my LSF is suggesting switching the tank to a Cichlid tank, which I am o.k. with, since they tend to like a higher ph. I feel that rather than messing with trying to adjust the ph on an ongoing basis, I should just stock fish that like the water that I have. He is willing to take the remaining inhabitants on a trade (1 caucatodie, 2 platies and 4 corys). That said, I could use some stocking suggestions. Reviewing some of the different cichlids, I do like Jack Dempsey's, Electric Yellows and Blue Peacock. Would any of these work together and what others should I consider? Also, what type of catfish or other scavenger fish should I consider?

 

[Coler]

Jack Dempsey's shouldn't be in with electric yellows (presumable labidchromis caereulus - a Mbuna species which should be kept with other similar) or Peacocks - Aulonocara species from the same lake as Mbuna and likewise should be kept with similar).

How long is the tank ?

Stocking with some rift lake cichlids would be appropriate with your high Ph, but the tank is not ideal sized for Mbuna or Peacocks - you could perhaps better consider some Tanganyikan species - shell dwellers and perhaps a Calvus. Have a look at the species profiles on here www.cichlidforum.com

By the way, there is no real reason why a Ph of 8 would have in itself killed your fish, presuming they were properly acclimated to a cycled tank. How long was the tank set up before adding and how cycled ? what test kit do you use ? How did you introduce the fish to the tank ? Finally did you see any symptoms/how did they appear to die.

I'm a leeeeetle bit suspicious of your LFS by the way, in that for instance a Jack Dempsey would typically be considered a softwater acidic species much like your Angel etc. - so it is strange that they might advise that your high Ph is a problem and then encourage you to consider this option.

As a general comment, except for certain specialised fish, a stable Ph is far more important than an 'ideal' Ph except when trying to breed.

If you do go down the road of some smaller rift lake species, I would not advise that you put in any bottom dwellers in that size tank.

 

[mcybyk]

I do not believe that the ph is the sole problem, as I am sure that as a newbie, I am in part to blame. During the months of Jan. and Feb, I began adding fish slowly, 2-3 at a time, every two weeks. I had established the tank with media from another tank and had gradually introduced the platies, gourami, angel fish and corys. After I added the 3 caucatuoides, my tank went into a mini-cycle. This was in the middle of Feb. My ammonia went up to .5 and I began daily water changes of 25-50%. This continued for about 4 days, with ammonia staying steady at .25 to .5. I then had to go out of town for 5 days. Just before I left, I did a 60% water change since I had no one that was able to change the water for me. My wife did add a pump or two of Stress Relieve while I was gone.

While I was gone, the gourami and one of the caucatuoides died. This may have been due to the large water change just before leaving, according to my LSF. When I got back, the ammonia was at .5, and the nitrites were slowly coming up. I resumed daily water changes for the next week and for the last 2 weeks the readings have been 0 ammonia and nitrites, 10-20 nitrates and a ph around 7.8 to 8. I have gone back to weekly 25% water changes. The angel fish died over the weekend, and I lost another caucatuoides on Monday. The last caucatuoides has not eaten in a couple of days.

The tank is about 3' long and I have been using an API master test kit.

What route do you recommend that I take?

 

[SanguineApple]

From what I'm reading, it wasn't the ph that killed the fish, but the ammonia and nitrite issues. Your tank went through a mini-cycle while you were adding some relatively sensitive fish. Even those that survived past the spikes were probably damaged by them.

I definitely agree that you shouldn't be playing with the water chemistry in your tank with chemicals, though.

 

[Coler]

I do not believe that the ph is the sole problem, as I am sure that as a newbie, I am in part to blame. During the months of Jan. and Feb, I began adding fish slowly, 2-3 at a time, every two weeks. I had established the tank with media from another tank and had gradually introduced the platies, gourami, angel fish and corys. After I added the 3 caucatuoides, my tank went into a mini-cycle. This was in the middle of Feb. My ammonia went up to .5 and I began daily water changes of 25-50%. This continued for about 4 days, with ammonia staying steady at .25 to .5. I then had to go out of town for 5 days. Just before I left, I did a 60% water change since I had no one that was able to change the water for me. My wife did add a pump or two of Stress Relieve while I was gone.

While I was gone, the gourami and one of the caucatuoides died. This may have been due to the large water change just before leaving, according to my LSF. When I got back, the ammonia was at .5, and the nitrites were slowly coming up. I resumed daily water changes for the next week and for the last 2 weeks the readings have been 0 ammonia and nitrites, 10-20 nitrates and a ph around 7.8 to 8. I have gone back to weekly 25% water changes. The angel fish died over the weekend, and I lost another caucatuoides on Monday. The last caucatuoides has not eaten in a couple of days.

The tank is about 3' long and I have been using an API master test kit.

What route do you recommend that I take?

basically your tank isn't cycled. have a read of this http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84598

you will see that you need to do water changes whenever ammonia or nitrite hit .25 ppm. This is so regardless of Ph/what kind of fish.

Get onto daily water changes and you might save the last fish, leaving you with the option of slowly increasing stocking from the point at which the tank cycles. Alternatively, return the fish, fishless cycle and while cycling read up on some of the options for future stocking.

That's a tough intro to the hobby by the way; stick with it, its worth it

 

[mcybyk]

I had read the article on cycling previously, jsut had not expected the mini cycle to occur. I assume from the comments that either a. the tank was never properly cycled with the media from the other tank or b. I added too many fish too quickly, even though I was spacing them about a week or two apart. Lastly, going out of town did not help in the middle of the cycle.

I am going to continue checking the tank daily to make certain that it is done with the mini cycle. As of yesterday, the tank had 0 ammonia and nitrites, and 10 nitrates, so it may be done cycling and has appeared to be stable for more than a week and a half. If I can save the last caucatuoide, then what should I consider as new tank mates? Do I try another caucatuoide and angel and gourami by adding them slowly and testing daily? After checking around, all of those fish prefer a ph of no more than 7. Or do I get rid of all of the fish ASAP and switch to fish that like a slightly higher ph?

Edit: BTW, Coler, I really like your tank setup - that is one that I would like to strive for.

 

[irishspy]

I wouldn't worry too much about the Ph of your tank: the fish from your LFS are probably acclimated to that kind of water already. More important is to keep the ammonia and nitrites under control.

I'd take daily readings to make sure the ammonia and nitrites are staying at 0. Then if a week goes by with no sign of a spike, gradually start adding fish again.

Sorry for your troubles. That couldn't have been fun. :headshake2:

 

[mcybyk]

Well I am sad to report that the last caucatoide passed over night - I had hoped that she would make it, but kind of could tell that it was unlikely :cry:. I have been taking daily readings and they have stayed consistent at 0 ammonia and nitrite, 10 nitrates and a ph of 7.8-8.0. The temp remains at 78 degrees.

Even though I thought I was avoiding a fishy cycle by using media from another established tank, the mini-cycle that was started with the addition of the last batch of fish coupled with being out of town and unable to do water changes means that I failed my fish. However, I do not want to give up so I am reaching out for additional information and hope to learn from a hard leason and my mistakes.

When I first embarked on setting up this new tank (40g), I originally wanted African cichlids. However, my 4 yr old daughter really wanted an angel fish and I rearranged my tank to somewhat accomodate her. Now that I know a little more, and having included her in flipping through books and the internet, I do want to switch to a cichlid tank. With that, I have been doing some research and have the following questions:

1. I am uncertain on whether I want to deal with trying to set up an all male tank or dealing with fry. The problem with dealing with any possible fry is that I do not have another tank and don't realy want to get another one at this time. In doing some research, it sounds like an all male tank is possible if the fish are added at a relatively young age and monitored for trouble makers.

2. In an earlier response, Coler had indicated that I should consider rift lake cichlids. After looking at several on www.cichlidforum.com, it appeared that their ph needs were higher than what my water is at. There was a suggested 40g setup that included 5 Pundamilia nyererei and 5 Labidochromis caeruleus with 2 Bristlenose Pleco (all appear to like their ph in the 7.8-8.6 range) . This sounds overstocked to me. Does anyone have any suggestions on variations on the above stock list?

3. Although my tank is showing cycled at this time, I am assuming that I want to add any fish slowly so as not to cause another mini-cycle - am I correct?

4. My current tank has a bed of round river gravel and is planted with fake plants of various sizes to provide shelter, etc. I have on piece of red pourous rock with an opening in the center and a large castle with caves and openings throughout (you guessed it, at the request of my daughter). To provide a better environment, my plan is to remove some of the plants and add more rock to create some more caves, etc. and possibly a fake piece of tree root, while still leaving the castle. Does this sound like the right thing to do (sorry I cannot upload pictures at this time since I am at work)?

Any and all feedback and/or criticism is appreciated as I want to learn and continue to set up a great tank for my family to enjoy. Thanks.

 

[Coler]

].[/COLOR] With that, I have been doing some research and have the following questions:

1. I am uncertain on whether I want to deal with trying to set up an all male tank or dealing with fry. The problem with dealing with any possible fry is that I do not have another tank and don't realy want to get another one at this time. In doing some research, it sounds like an all male tank is possible if the fish are added at a relatively young age and monitored for trouble makers.

yep you've put your finger on it; especially a rift lake tank, especially malawis. but you can stock reasonably slowly, over a couple of months. I've also had success adding new fish in groups of three or so and an almost adult age. re-arranging the decor helps tons. all male is great for not having to deal with fry, but requires constant monitoring and a plan b - you have to be willing to move out the lunatics/wimps.

Also key is to avoid choosing fish of similar colouration; which is nice as you get a wonderfully colourful display.


2. In an earlier response, Coler had indicated that I should consider rift lake cichlids. After looking at several on www.cichlidforum.com, it appeared that their ph needs were higher than what my water is at. There was a suggested 40g setup that included 5 Pundamilia nyererei and 5 Labidochromis caeruleus with 2 Bristlenose Pleco (all appear to like their ph in the 7.8-8.6 range) . This sounds overstocked to me. Does anyone have any suggestions on variations on the above stock list?

8 is perfect (ok techically 8.2 is perfect but really there's no difficulty. Mine are in 7.8 and are doing great), stable is crucial. I would skip the plecos from that set up - they add nothing really to the tank unless you're a pleco freak in which case set up a different tank, they don't always do well with Malawis.

I think 10 cichlids & 2 BN plecos is really pushing the space and bioload of that tank too far. The male P. Nyeria are beautiful (these are lake victoria btw), females a little less so imo..if you like them though and want to do that mix, cut down to 4 of each of these, labs and nyerei. As I said the nyerei females are drab. If you want to do two groups I would reccomend a blue fish to contrast with the labs; Pseudotropheus Socolofi would be lovely. Stock 1 male and 3 females of each.

Here's a suggested all male 40g with pretty much non-aggressive species, or at least species which are not generally aggressive to non conspecifics :

1 Pseudotropheus Socolofi
1 Pseudotropheus Acei
1 Labidochromis Caereulus (yellow)
1 Iodotropheus Sperengae
1 Labidochromis Hongi 'red top'
1 Albino species - Albino Socolofi are beautiful
1. Cynotilapia Afra 'lion's cove' or a Metriaclima Estherae 'Red Zebra' if you wanted to risk it for a biscuit...this would likely be the boss in the tank and either would be considered aggressive for mbuna, but you won't be colour matching with any of the other fish.

But I don't know what you would have available locally - check them out and post back

3. Although my tank is showing cycled at this time, I am assuming that I want to add any fish slowly so as not to cause another mini-cycle - am I correct?

yep and after adding test every day for a few days so you know everything is caught up

4. My current tank has a bed of round river gravel and is planted with fake plants of various sizes to provide shelter, etc. I have on piece of red pourous rock with an opening in the center and a large castle with caves and openings throughout (you guessed it, at the request of my daughter). To provide a better environment, my plan is to remove some of the plants and add more rock to create some more caves, etc. and possibly a fake piece of tree root, while still leaving the castle. Does this sound like the right thing to do (sorry I cannot upload pictures at this time since I am at work)?

If you want mbuna you want a ton of rock...you can have some fake plants if you like, I would personally ditch the castle lol. There's some really nice rift ake set-ups in the photo section.

Any and all feedback and/or criticism is appreciated as I want to learn and continue to set up a great tank for my family to enjoy. Thanks.

overfilter the tank - get a really good cannister external filter on there and a powerful internal. Commit to minimum 30% or more water changes; these fish love clean water and despite being hardy and tough little blighters are very intolerant of high nitrates. I keep mine below 20 and reccomend that any rift lake tank be aimed at that level of nitrates.