75 or 85 Long Reef-Newbie with questions. Overstocked?

[dani_starr]

Hello AC members! Boy, has it been a long time since I've been on here!

I have contemplated doing a reef aquarium twice now. Once, 4 years ago (and spent a non refundable $800 at the LFS on equipment that I didn't need to decide to do a freshwater tank instead -_-) and a couple years back as well. This time, I finally feel ready and more confident to actual go through with it. I've been researching a lot, and bought a few books too.

This is my plan so far

I've narrowed it down between a 4 ft 75 gallon, or a 6ft 85 gallon long (if I can find one again on craigslist. There have been multiple ones recently, but we have to wait til we finish moving to get one). The 85 is a bit narrow compared to a 75 gallon (15"), but given that all my fish will be under 5," I think the extra 2 feet of swimming space would be appreciated.

I'm going to set it up with the corals and inverts first, and let it sit for 72 days, so I don't have to QT every single coral and invert. I don't plan on adding for fish for at least 4-6+ months AFTER the cycle (will use pure ammonia or fish food) has been complete, I want the corals to grow a bit before adding fish.

It will have sand, and I plan to buy ~100lbs of dead rock and no live rock. I have no problem waiting longer for it to cycle.

I plan to have a 20 gallon long QT tank.

After the 72+ day mark since anything new (coral/invert) has been added to the aquarium, I will get my first fish, and put them in the QT tank for ~10 weeks to make sure they are parasite and disease free. I probably will give all fish prazipro, whether they are sick or not, as that seems to be recommended.

Here is my fish stock list (all fish will be gotten from fellow reefers or craigslist):
~1 Six line wrasse (I'm aware they have to be added last, and can be terrors. Along with they typically hate any fish added after them.)
~1 Coral beauty angelfish (I'm aware they can be known to nip corals. )
~2 Ocellaris Clownfish
~1-4 Green Chromis (I know they are popular for dwindling down to just one, I plan to get a group that has been living together for at least 6 months and feed 3x a day).

Invert wise:
~Nassarius and cerith sp snails, and one conch snail

Possible additions I'd love to have:
~2-4 scarlet skunk cleaner shrimp (I've heard from someone that the six line wrasse would eat them, but I see multiple videos and stocking lists where people have them together. I've also read that they like to live in groups)
~2-4 dwarf blue leg hermit crab (I'm worried about them killing snails for their shells though. If I provided an abundance of prime shells, would they be an okay addition?)


What order would you add the fish?

I was thinking:
1st-1-4 green chromis
*wait 1-2 months*
2nd-Coral beauty angelfish
*wait 1-2 months*
3rd- Ocellaris clownfish and 6 line wrasse (will find someone who has all three together already)

Coral wise, I mainly want softies (mushrooms, cauliflower coral, sinularia, blue glove polyps, toadstool mushroom leather) and LPS (bubble, torch, hammer).

I do want ONE hard stony branching (sps) coral for the green chromis, as I've read they sleep in the branches at night. Any recommendations on an *easy/hard to kill* branching sps coral that comes in blue/green, pink, or purple coloration?

Also, I'm very aware that not many recommend green chromis, or six line wrasses. For some reason, I adore them both to pieces. That's why I'm planning to find someone rehoming theirs on craigslist or a fellow reefer. I figure I have the best chance with the chromis if I get a pair or group that's already been living together for at least 6 months, and with the sixline if I find one that's been kept with a variety of other fish and add last/make my final livestock addition.

Lastly, what would my stocking levels be? Understocked? Overstocked?

Thanks so much!

 

[dani_starr]

Oh, I also feel I should add that I'm not doing a sump (had a major sump flooding when I had my 75 gal with sump, not risking that again). I plan on a HOB skimmer though, and possibly a canister filter or HOB refugium. I still have to research equipment and all the technical stuff more. I won't be moving for about 6 months (when the lease is up), so plenty of time to plan and research.

Lighting wise, I'm looking into kessils, or leds. I don't mind saving longer to spend more up front, rather than paying more down the road in electric bills and replacement bulbs.

Ideally, I want a fairly low maintenance reef. I know I'll have to do some dosing for the LPS and SPS, but I don't want to go super high tech like some I've seen.

Once it's set up, and the corals and fish have been added; I want to leave it alone, and let it grow and not change or add anything new.

 

[Duckie]

Hoo boy. You done all your research (that you have done so far) and made your plan. Now you want someone to simply say: Yes, excellent, do it! Except it is not that easy. Don't want to throw a monkey wrench into it, but there is a few things that stick out that don't make sense to me. I am no expert by any means - just started my own first SW tank in may. Well I started researching it since last year. But I actually started putting live things in on may 12th. I also had a plan af beeing patient. I HAD (past tense) the plan of being patient. That part of the plan flew out the window. There is a few similarities between your research and mine including part of the plan - some of it didn't happen for me. So here is a few things that put up a red flag when reading your posts:

- you don't mind waiting for your dead rock to become live, but yet you are willing to save money for top of the line equipment. 100 lbs of dry rock is a lot, especially if you get nice porous one. You won't have any room to add live rock later. I am not saying get all nice live rock (that would cost a fortune), but rather get maybe 50 lbs of dry rock and one nice piece of cured live rock to seed the rest. Later on you can add more pieces of cured live rock as money allows.

- You want to add coral before adding fish. Not the best idea as coral is really sensitive concerning water quality. Especially since you want stony coral as well.

- No sump, but low maintenance desired? That will make things a bit tough. Skimmers that are designed for in sump are usually better and more efficient. Hang on back skimmer will probably work just fine when it is working fine. Except when it is not and decides to overflow - that is a mess I wouldn't want outside the (sump) tank. Hang on back refugium is better than no refugium, but they are usually very tall and narrow. If you are growing algae in your refugium it works better with a shallow tank and as big a surface area as possible.

- overstocking/understocking? That will mostly depend on your filtration. The better your filtration, the more bio load you can throw at it. My 75 gal can probably be considered overstocked. Except when I test my water it doesn't indicate that. There is 4 ocellaris clownfish, 4 pajama cardinals, 4 sunshine chromis, 2 scooter blennies (female), a yellow tang, 2 hippo tang (waiting for bigger tank), a firefish, and a goatfish (also waiting for bigger tank). I have yet to see anything other than zero for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. I also don't believe in feeding lightly - that is the same as starving in my book. Understocking is no guarantee for good water quality, and overstocking doesn't have to mean bad water.

 

[fsn77]

A few things...
By adding only dead rock, you will miss out on a lot of biodiversity that makes a reef tank as interesting as it really can be. Live rock is not only about the bacteria that run the nitrogen cycle. There's a lot of microfauna that come along with live rock, many of which become food for fish like a sixline wrasse. I'd suggest using at least a 25% / 75% live rock to dead rock split, and to add all of your rock at the same time to keep from having to deal with mini-cycles caused by later additions.

To cycle, I'd stick with pure ammonia (make sure it has no surfactants) over fish food, as fish food will also add phosphates that will help fuel nuisance algal blooms.

Some of the best food for coral growth is fish waste... I would not be surprised if coral growth is minimal prior to adding fish.

Your stocking list for fish seems fine (not overstocked) -- and you seem aware of the issues common with those fish. I suspect you will have to be very patient to find fish that need rehomed in the combinations you mentioned.

You would have to get a full size sixline wrasse and some relatively young cleaner shrimp before worrying about the wrasse eating the shrimp.

Providing an abundance of empty shells in assorted sizes for hermits to constantly "try on" can help deter them from killing your snails to take their shells. Although, that does not always solve the problem. Sometimes, it seems to be a case of them simply wanting what someone else has, so they'll kill them regardless.

A well planned sump should not flood... And is less likely to flood than a HOB skimmer in my experience. The biggest mistake made with sumps is not leaving enough empty volume to hold the water that will drain from the main tank during a power outage.

Considering the types of corals you intend to keep, I would not go too crazy on the lighting.

If you want low maintenance, a canister filter is not the way to go. While it will collect a good bit of detritus for you in addition to being a place to run carbon and/or phosphate remover, it will require frequent maintenance.

 

[Duckie]

"A well planned sump should not flood"

Isn't that the bare minimum effort to TEST a sump for power outage and see if it will hold all running down water? Sure, planned out ahead of time can avoid that as well, but seeing it happening doesn't take but a minute or two. I assumed that would have been done before the accident happened and the reason it flooded might have been a plugged hose or something. Have you actually seen bad sumps that would flood if power fails? (Maybe not your own, but somebody elses)

 

[dani_starr]

Duckie and fsn77 Oh wow, thank you for the responses so far. Let me clarify on a few things, and a few revisions I've made. Thank you for being so honest and truthful in your responses, I don't want to start off on the wrong foot.

1. My reason for not wanting to get live rock is because I don't want to risk any possible pest hitchhikers. I know there's a lot of beneficial microfauna to be gained, but all the bad things (aiptasia, coral eating nudibranch, fireworms, etc. ) concern me. Not as much because I'm worried about them getting in my tank, as I will struggle with killing a moving little nudibranch or fireworm, etc. I'm the weird person that doesn't kill flies, instead I capture them and bring them outside. Aiptasia, that just seems to be a nightmare to eradicate. While I wouldn't mind spending the money on the live rock, and would really enjoy having beneficial critters, I would like to completely avoid anything bad coming in my tank. I wouldn't mind if my fish ate something bad or good though (or a hermit kills a snail), because that's just nature.

*Perhaps though, I can find some reef keeper on a forum that I trust and buy a few pieces of live rock off them. I would like to have little bristleworms and other helpful critters. I know they would provide some tasty snacks for the wrasse, and overall be good additions.*

2. On another forum, there is a long sticky by on of the mods there about how starting with corals BEFORE fish is actually a really good idea. That's where I made the decision to do corals first, then fish. Here's the link http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/blog.php?b=798

3. I was thinking about it more, and what the problem was that the pipe connecting to the hole in the aquarium wasn't connected properly. The fittings were lose I guess, and it flooded the overflow box..and the aquarium stand...and the carpet. At 2am. It was a fun night. So I guess my concern is more in the fact that there's a hole in the aquarium, that could possibly leak. I also had a hard time figuring out how the built in overflow box worked. I had no idea about the HOB skimmers flooding, I always saw them more like a HOB power filter. That's making me rethink my no sump idea greatly, and leaning towards a small sump now. I just need to research more how they work and how to make sure everything is fitted properly. It would be easier to access the refugium as well (which I would like to have), and have my filter media for a QT tank in there too.

I also made the mistake of not making sure there was enough empty space for the water to drain from the overflow during a power outage as well.

4. I definitely will find a pure ammonia with nothing added to it, over fish food.

5. I've changed my mind, and have decided on a softy only reef. I think that will strike the perfect balance between fairly low maintenance, and colorful. I really like the leather corals.

6. Yep, I will have to be pretty patient. However, over the last 3 months I've been looking, there have been at least 5 postings for the above fish that I want. Some even with ocellaris and a 6 line together! Saltwater and reef keeping seems to be pretty popular here.

7. Good to know about the shrimps and snails. If I find someone on CL or a forum classified who has some blue reef hermits, then I probably will get some.

To recap, these are the new revisions:
~Soft corals only, no LPS or SPS
~Will have sump and refugium, need to research about it a ton more to prevent leaking and flooding again
~Plan to find some live rock off of a fellow reef keeper that I trust to seed the tank
~No canister filter, or anything HOB

Thank you so much again!

 

[dani_starr]

"A well planned sump should not flood"

Isn't that the bare minimum effort to TEST a sump for power outage and see if it will hold all running down water? Sure, planned out ahead of time can avoid that as well, but seeing it happening doesn't take but a minute or two. I assumed that would have been done before the accident happened and the reason it flooded might have been a plugged hose or something. Have you actually seen bad sumps that would flood if power fails? (Maybe not your own, but somebody elses)

When I got my 75 gallon, I had no idea what the sump was really. Or how it worked. I asked my LFS if I needed to worry about any leaking/do any tests, and they told me it was okay, given that the guy who sold it to me had it set up 6 months prior. I set it up following their basic directions (I took pictures, and brought them in), and didn't do any power outage test (as I had no clue it was needed). The hose also had a bunch of gravel stuck in it too, I recall.

After I had happily filled my tank, I sat on my bed and read a book. As I was reading, I heard a quite noise that sounded like water pouring out somewhere. My tank seemed fine though, so I ignored it. The sound was getting louder, and suddenly, I noticed the water level in my tank had gone down. I leaped out of bed, and water was leaking out of the bottom of the tank, and cascading down the sides of the overflow. I ended up temporarily fixing it with duct tape so I could go to bed. Next morning, drained tank and got PVC glue and fixed the connection on the pipe.

After that fun fiasco, I figured it was smooth sailing. Oh how wrong I was. At this point, it had been at least a month since I set up my tank. It had sand, and some live plants in it. I was gone from my apartment, and the power had gone out. Came home to find a flooded sump.

That, is where my no sump plan evolved from. While looking back, I can see that it was poor planning and lack of basic knowledge that caused the problem, and not the sump itself. I'm still a little wary of it, but it seems that I just need to make sure I test it for a power outage, and triple check all fittings for any leaks.

 

[dani_starr]

Wrong link posted above, here is the corals first one http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/blog.php?b=800

 

[Duckie]

I built my sump on my 75 myself, so I had to test it because I eyeballed everything. Started with a 30 gal tank and siliconed baffles in it, because I am cheap. :-D

 

[dani_starr]

Oh wow, that's impressive! At least you know it's well made.

Random question I have after reading the cycling sticky. If I didn't want to do ammonia or a frozen human grade food shrimp (I'm vegan), could I just use a cube of frozen marine fish food in panty hose instead?

Also, just read that things that are bad for your tank (such as most crabs, some slugs, etc.) can live a happy and useful life in your sump. Didn't even think about that! That's the perfect solution! Looks like a sump, and some good quality live rock are a must now!