A saltwater COMPLETE newbie!

CaitxSith

A little too obsessed with neons.
Sep 30, 2006
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The pond with some Triops
you may have seen my posts (just 2 in the whole saltwater forum lol), and may have known that i'm a FRESHWATER enthusiast but with the encouragement of my friend (saltwater enthusiast) and the extra 10 gallon tank, i decided to have a go for it. just a few questions:
1) I need to cycle. yes, i know. But can i fill the 10 gallon with freshwater, put my freshwater bacteria filter media in, then add salt? of course, i hear about "live rock" (whoa... living rock? i thought rocks were dead...) being used for ammonia sources so can't I just stick in a live rock? i hear 1 to 2 pounds per gallon... 10~20 pounds?! man, isn't there another alternative?

2) I know I shouldn't do corals (friend telling me that they're costly and hard to keep)... can I..?

3) Stocking? Snails? Fish?

4) Substrate or no substrate.... my friend doesn't have a substrate...

5) Lighting? How strong (watts)?

6) Equipment? What do I need? (btw, my friend has some weird pipes everywhere and "sump (???)" and... argh! too hard to explain!

help! :help:
 
1) Freshwater and salwater bacterias are completely different. Adding freshwater bacteria to a saltwater tank will not do anything other than add unnesisary organics to your water.

Rock is not live, it never is. "Live" is rock wich is usually composed of dead coral skelotons over time and is inhabited by a large array of bacterias, algaes and invertebrates. These critters usualy play a vital role in keeping great water conditions in many marine and almost all reef tanks.

This rock can be an ammonia source becuase their is usually a die off in these critters during shippping (it's shipped in wet newspapers for cost reasons) and as this stuff decomposes, you get your ammonia.

Yes, 10-20 pounds. It actually isn't very much, considering how much rock people with 100+ gallon systems use. In marine tanks, often live rock and/or live rocks are the only decorations, wich is what I suggest you do becuase it creates a more familiar enviroment for the (usually) wild collected fish. I personally only use about 1 pound per gallon, but probably will do more in the future due to the growth of my corals and the increasing variety of corals I keep.

Please note that it's fine to use certain "dead" rock, such as lace rock, limestone (limestone is actually a dead, dry reef) or (you'll find this at the LFS) base rock. This will save you money and also means less is coming out of the ocean. "Dead" rock will become "live" over a period of months provided that you seed the tank with live rock and/or live sand.

2) Corals: with lighting, additives, test kits, buying the starter colonys (buy small colonys or "frags" to lessen cost) yes it is expensive. For some people who are really into the hobby, it's possible to spend thousands of dollars a year. However, that risk is eliminated in a 10 gallon. For a tank of your size, your looking at maybe an additional $50-100 to go to a reef setup instead of fish only.

Hard to keep: Some corals at this time cannot be kept. While others can. Out of the ones that can be kept, there's some wich will require really intensive care, while others (namely the majority of softys) realy need about the same amount of care as a fish only tank. You need to do your own research on wich you think you are capable of maintianing, also on how to maintain a reef in general.

3) Your looking at one or two small fish at the most (maybe clowns), a clean up crew (snails & hermits) and possibly some shrimp. You can also add almost as much corals to that as you want.

4) Personal preference here - bare bottom will be easier to clean, however sand will provide some more surface area for the bacteria's (although it isn't needed with the live rock) and some more area for the micro inverts. In a tank of your size, it doesn't have enough surface area for a functioning deep snad bed, so you can't reap the benifits of a deep sand bed here.

5) depends on what you keep. For a 10g, with soft corals, I would use two 10 watt 50/50 power compact bulbs in one of those plastic hoods.

6) In larger setups normally a protien skimmer would be used... However here it's really not worth the money considering that it's practical to do weekly water changes. I suggest you read this: http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_small_aquarium_filter.php

It was I while ago when I read that, so I'm not sur eif ti mentions that you should have atleast a 15 x turnover rate per hour, created by powerheads, the filter, etc.

Also, if you don't mind dishing out he cash for a protien skimmer... all the better. Sump isn't nessisary, but if you would like to get one to hide your equipment and add extra water volume and stability... again all the better.

BTW, my member page has some links that you will probably help you research this.
 
CaitxSith said:
you may have seen my posts (just 2 in the whole saltwater forum lol), and may have known that i'm a FRESHWATER enthusiast but with the encouragement of my friend (saltwater enthusiast) and the extra 10 gallon tank, i decided to have a go for it. just a few questions:
1) I need to cycle. yes, i know. But can i fill the 10 gallon with freshwater, put my freshwater bacteria filter media in, then add salt? of course, i hear about "live rock" (whoa... living rock? i thought rocks were dead...) being used for ammonia sources so can't I just stick in a live rock? i hear 1 to 2 pounds per gallon... 10~20 pounds?! man, isn't there another alternative?

2) I know I shouldn't do corals (friend telling me that they're costly and hard to keep)... can I..?

3) Stocking? Snails? Fish?

4) Substrate or no substrate.... my friend doesn't have a substrate...

5) Lighting? How strong (watts)?

6) Equipment? What do I need? (btw, my friend has some weird pipes everywhere and "sump (???)" and... argh! too hard to explain!

help! :help:


freshwater bateria and saltwater bacteria are totally different and they will die the instant they touch salt... making your own water is also another story.. it takes about 7-8 hours for the salt to disolve and then a couple more hours for the salinty to raise.. you also rick having phosphate in pour system you need the liverock to have a stable tank and also a place where bacteria can anchor so just put out the money and man up.. it helps later on

Corals arn't that expensive.. shops sell frags or fragments of corals and they will grow (at a slow rate) and the cost also depends on what type.. but being a beginner youll be spending about 10-15 bucks for a coral frag the lighting that is required for corals is a minimum of 3 watts and that only allows you to keep soft corals... 4-5 watts enables you to keep everything

(CLAMS also require a good 4-5 watts)

start out with hermit crabs to pre cycle the tank the common hermits that cost about 2 bucks a pop youll be needing about 5-10 of these

FISH
Reef safe fish refers to whether or not the fish will eat corals or other smaller fishes
you can generally tell by how they look

not reef safe= Triggers,puffers,Sweetlips,Groupers, SOME Butterflys and a couple others
Reef safe=clowns,chromis,tangs

some fishes like to be the only looker in the tank.. meaning a purple tang MIGHT bully a yellow tang but leave a blue tang alone reason is the body shape and other fishedgo by color


(you can always aske me and ill tell you)

rule of thumb for salt water is one inch for every 2 gallons

i recommend you use live sand (packed wet and contains a starter amount of bacteria)this is additional biomedia to stableize your tank..

Lighting wat metion above for corals.. if you go fish only or a "marine tank" you can run any type of lighting


on a 10 gallon a sump is highly difficult to hook up

i recommen you run a really big HOB or a canister filter as means of removing particles.. and a skimmer for organic removal(the live rock and live sand will do a majority of your bacterail filtration)

WET-Dry
This is an extra catch bassin or resivour where water is passed through BIOBALLS and through a skimmer and then returned to the fish tank

http://www.petsr4u.com/prodimages/proclear/125galw-d.gif

SUMP
this is simply a tank like above and instead of passing through bioballs it runs through a filter sock and then to the skimmer.. and returns to the tank.... the sump ushually has additional live rock rubble Best used in reef tanks with coral

http://www.tydpoolmarine.com/img/ReefSump.jpg
 
Those two above are very extensive and accurate (in my opinion) summaries.

Just to add little bit more from my experience, I've had pretty good success with 55 gallon and a 20 gallon sump (total 75 gallon of water). After I got overly confident, I set up a 10 gallon with some soft corals, which I found to be MUCH more difficult.

Since you say that you are a freshwater enthusiast, I'm sure you are aware that smaller tanks don't mean simpler or any easier, especially because of difficulty of maintaining stable chemistry within small amount of water. You'll find that corals react very quickly to change in water quality. I've seen much more drastic responses from corals in my 10 gallon than the 75 gallon.

I don't mean to discourage you from giving it a try =) IMO, they're definitely more challenging, yet, more exciting than freshwater. It may take some time and practice to fully establishing your tank. Stay away from corals in the beginning. Once you really feel comfortable with your tank, start with something relatively hardy and inexpensive (i.e. frags like someone suggested up there). Good luck!
 
hmm.... no hang on back power filter?

oooo 10~15$ for a piece of coral lol.
i guess the beauty makes up for it :huh:

what do you mean by, "get a hermit crab for PRE-CYCLE (???)"?

then can't you just get an ammonia source to cycle?

maybe.... fill with salt water, put equipment in/on... then put in a piece of shrimp for ammonia..?

also, is there a reason why pretty much every salt water hobbyist has a live rock?

(also, can i just stick in rocks to raise pH or something :confused: )

*EDIT* heard that corals sting you..... and release toxins into your body... then how the heck do you stick them in?
 
dorkfish said:
Rock is not live, it never is. "Live" is rock wich is usually composed of dead coral skelotons over time and is inhabited by a large array of bacterias, algaes and invertebrates. These critters usualy play a vital role in keeping great water conditions in many marine and almost all reef tanks.

IMHO, getting a hermit to "pre-cycle" a tank is a BAD idea, as inverts tend to be really sensitive to ammonia/nitrites.

Very few corals will sting you, actually I can't think of any that do. I have read about some SPS corals readcting badly to the oil on your fingers, though. Rubber gloves should prevent any reactions between you and the corals.

Anemonies will though, however, only some people actualy feel the sting and it would take a VERY large amount of work and time establishing the tank to keep them alive, not to mention that most anem's will almost completely cover the bottom of a 10g.

A lot of the corals sold at my LFS go for about $5 actualy, yet 10-15 really isn't that expensive compared to certain corals. The cheaper corals usually comes to you smaller, however, I've read larger corals tend to be less tolerant of change in water pram's.

CaitxSith said:
hmm.... no hang on back power filter?


Seems as though you didn't read th link I posted... Not trying to be rude, but when somone posts a link, there's usually a reason for it...
 
sorry... i just think of the whole picture rather than details (my art teacher >_>)... so i really can't understand, (A.K.A I want a simple answer. too bad life isn't that easy :D) wether it's yes or no.
 
CaitxSith said:
(A.K.A I want a simple answer. too bad life isn't that easy :D) wether it's yes or no.

I can provide the info for you, but, I can't make a decision for you... Just take your time, read it all and decide whether or not you think you are prepared to take care of which animals. Actually, I could have gave you 20 links and not even bother typing all that up (actually have done that before), so that's actually a more simplistic answer.

One thing you may have realised by now is that with saltwater, there's usually atleast two or more perfectly correct ways to do something, while with freshwater, there's often only one correct way to do something. So, even if you ask a simple question, there's a good chance you'll still get a complicated answer...
 
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dang. and i thought salt water would be a piece of cake because i have experience with freshwater (or at least setting it up...). Oh well. Time to ask my friend to hand me some of his live rock lol.

can i just add a 10~20 (how much?) pound rock and just stick it in and also add a piece of live rock (how big?)? Would the bacteria inhabit the rock and then i don't need to dish out cash for live rock?
 
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