Adjusting PH

All I'm asking for is where you find the information. Can you point me to the article/articles that can inform me about this?

learned it in 2 different marine bio courses and the test kits box also confirms...(duh i know maybe just to sell the kit..but it states it inside) just google it....or do i have to.....sry for the grumpy attitude im just sick of getting nothing but criticism when i try to help...not to say ur doing so...sry im just venting now ill stop...:read:
"strontium next to calcium is the 2nd most abundant substance in coral skeletons...etc" "as calcium depletes so does strontium"....so if both are at correct levels...u can assume the ph is reading right...so its indirect...im gona go to sleepnow...sry again....day turned for the worst today.:thud:
i just like being complete in my tests....
 
Hey guys, if either of you Google" Strontium effects in reef tanks" you will find the info.

Here is the basics of strontium/molybdenum in tanks and how it effects things. It basically works as a bridge in the cellular molecular world. For good calcium uptake into the cell walls of animals/corals/algae they need strontium trace elements. Tanks heavily dosed in strontium will have faster growth rates of corallines(assuming all other levels like Mg/CA/Alk/pH are correct) and skeletal corals. So, in theory, strontium will affect calcium by enabling it to be absorbed faster by the animals using it. Now, I use it and have done so since the early Calcite days with drip trays. Once it was common knowledge that calcite doesn't release any trace elements until it is under pH7.8 Calcite loss popularity. However if you use granulated Calcite in a reactor after the calcium reactor where the calcium reactor discharge line is this will release tons of Magnesium and strontium and the colors of your SPS will look amazing. The pH after the CA reactor is usually 6.6-7.0 depending on how hard you are pushing the reactor and this low pH seawater will strip the calcite excellently!

I am not a chemist, nor am I very articulate, but I do have 25+ years of reefing and have literally tried everything! Strontium helps speed things up a little. Do you NEED it? No. But the addition of it will help. It's like liquid iron supplements. It is not generally recommended to add them but if you add 5ml to a 100g system once a month your Macro algae will be greener and thicker and again the color of corals that have green in their tissues are darker.

I hope this helps a little to make people understand why it should be used. Reefing is very complex. Sometimes experiences over time teach us more than the articles that rebuke our techniques. The literature is only so good, after that it just leads to debate. Bare bottom or DSB, or Skimmer or skimmerless just to name 2 things were the articles are on different spectrums. I say keep things as simple as possible. Try new techniques for about 6 months and gauge their successes and adapt, modify, or continue what works.
 
Hey guys, if either of you Google" Strontium effects in reef tanks" you will find the info.

Here is the basics of strontium/molybdenum in tanks and how it effects things. It basically works as a bridge in the cellular molecular world. For good calcium uptake into the cell walls of animals/corals/algae they need strontium trace elements. Tanks heavily dosed in strontium will have faster growth rates of corallines(assuming all other levels like Mg/CA/Alk/pH are correct) and skeletal corals. So, in theory, strontium will affect calcium by enabling it to be absorbed faster by the animals using it. Now, I use it and have done so since the early Calcite days with drip trays. Once it was common knowledge that calcite doesn't release any trace elements until it is under pH7.8 Calcite loss popularity. However if you use granulated Calcite in a reactor after the calcium reactor where the calcium reactor discharge line is this will release tons of Magnesium and strontium and the colors of your SPS will look amazing. The pH after the CA reactor is usually 6.6-7.0 depending on how hard you are pushing the reactor and this low pH seawater will strip the calcite excellently!

I am not a chemist, nor am I very articulate, but I do have 25+ years of reefing and have literally tried everything! Strontium helps speed things up a little. Do you NEED it? No. But the addition of it will help. It's like liquid iron supplements. It is not generally recommended to add them but if you add 5ml to a 100g system once a month your Macro algae will be greener and thicker and again the color of corals that have green in their tissues are darker.

I hope this helps a little to make people understand why it should be used. Reefing is very complex. Sometimes experiences over time teach us more than the articles that rebuke our techniques. The literature is only so good, after that it just leads to debate. Bare bottom or DSB, or Skimmer or skimmerless just to name 2 things were the articles are on different spectrums. I say keep things as simple as possible. Try new techniques for about 6 months and gauge their successes and adapt, modify, or continue what works.

thx for that man:) ..u just made my life a little better with that post
 
Thanks for the stimulation to get me reading again, it's how I learn things: not always though about what I start out investigating.

Ok, I've done the Google and search 10 pages of it for relevant links that are not:
1: Not by a company selling the products.
2: Not by a hobbyist with anecdotal type information.

The very first link to the Advanced Aqarist mag online was the ONLY reputable link IMO. (I stress the IMO as like everything in this hobby, there are at least several opinions on just about anything)

First, let me say that I am aware that strontium is uptaken by many life forms, some of which NEED the strontium and others where it just happens to be taken up in life's process.
The same thing applies to iodine, but I don't dose that either.

HOWEVER, after reading the Nov article and it's follow-up article in Dec by Randy, I still have not changed my mind that supplemental dosing of strontium is likely not required in my tank and many other tanks.
There is little information to actually show that all the organisms that uptake strontium actually need it, although there are SOME documented cases showing adverse affects on low or no strontium for certain specified life forms.
The kicker here might very well be that as in Randy's personal tank, his strontium levels remain well above sea level concentrations, remaining the same as what his I.O. concentrations are of newly mixed salt water.
Given that there is most definitely uptake of strontium in his tank, then the strontium must be coming from elsewhere. Some probabilities are the water changes with I.O., from food that we feed our tanks, and a little from his lime water he doses with.
While the source is unknown for sure, the REAL point here is: your tank might just very well be getting strontium from somewhere, and supplemental doses would not be necessary
Now I know that some hobbyists don't do water changes, or do very few in the course of a year, and it is quite probable that in such situations, that strontium will be a needed supplement. It might also be that some hobbyists with abnormal precipitation of calcium and magnesium due to water problems and incorrectly applied remedies, have precipitated a greater percentage of strontium than calcium or magnesium and will then need to supplement.
That being said, I also noted that elevated levels of strontium could possibly have an adverse effect on some organisms in our aquaria.
It boils down to then like iodine, don't add what you haven't tested for and found to be needed.
It would be great to be able to have a large study done on sooo many aspects of this hobby, but in reality most will not be done because of the cost of such studies.
The only ones with the money are the ones selling the products THEY claim we need.

Getting back to the pH problem, which I believe was basically most helped by the previously given link, I haven't found any writing anywhere to indicate that testing of strontium is needed along with calcium, magnesium and alkalinity to determine the possible problems of pH being out of range.
Most likely that is because strontium is such a small percentage of the calcium and magnesium (about 1/100th of magnesium) that are often a reason for pH problems.

I have severe pH problems and yet alk is fine. Doing the fresh air trick shows the pH going up with outdoor aeration.
However, I have a double cored HRV running 24/7 bringing in a heck of a pile of outdoor air, but it's just not enough for the over 1000g of water in my basement between tanks and water for the tanks, and the brine shrimp production facility.
I just need to move to a warmer climate where I don't have a shut up hose for such a major part of the year.

Again, thanks for the replys.
 
This is a very interesting thread- makes me rethink of what I should and shouldn't dose.

On a side note, I don't think anyone's quest for knowledge should be considered criticism. The more information we all can obtain and use, the better and more informed decisions we can make and share with others. The internet is filled with false information and it's good we're all here to share experiences, knowledge and once in a while, a friendly debate. I think it's wonderful for others to ask for more information to expand their understanding of certain subjects.

Again, great thread- taught me a couple of things and encouraged me to do some of my own research.
 
I agree with your post Ray. Testing the parameters of the tank should determine strontium dosing. Also, this trace element is in many liquid supplements and salts so if you are dosing a buffer or doing WC's you are probably getting the strontium you need.

If aeration is helping your pH rise and you feel that the air you are pumping into the tank is part of the problem then a small ozone generator may help. At best it would boost redox and help clarify the water column. A larger generato is a waste cause any excess ozone will just escape the system and cause you to use more carbon on your discharge line.

If dissolved organics or the Carbon:Nitrogen:phosphorous ratio is out of wack it too can drive pH down. There are many reasons for low pH. Are you testing with a probe?

Sometime a large skimmer(in the 4" class) or a powerful recirc skimmer will achieve the same goal as the ozone injection on a smaller skimmer. Low grade carbon can affect the pH and phos levels as well.

If alk is maintained above 3.5meq/l , water changes are done with quality RO/DI water, and Calcium/mag levels are normal the pH should stabilize somewhere above 8.0 .

Have you ever taken a redox test in Mv? Or done a dissolved Oxygen tests?
These may have some interesting results.

I always use big skimmers, so my pH has never been below 8.0 . I also worry much more about Alk, CA, Mg levels because the pH is naturally going to have swings thru out the day.

LMK< what you think.
Rich
 
Thank you for your considerate reply!
While I have many years of experience, there are sooo many things I have no experience with for one reason or another.
Ozone is one of these.
Like in another thread I mentioned I would need at least 17 chillers to cool all my systems, ozone would not be practical either, especially on my income.
It is because of so many systems that I have the problem of CO2, in spite of my investment in the double HRV.
HRV.jpg


I use home made skimmers, approx. 6 to 7 feet tall with air stones that are two inches square and have a 7/8" diameter bore, made out of bass wood. I also utilize Hagen 802 power heads to point towards the surface for agitation aiding the gas exchange.
As seen here, I can crank up the air flow to whatever I need.
skimmax2.jpg


I maintain my calcium and alkalinity with limewater, boosting whatever and whenever needed by two part calc/alk systems, and I use hand held pH meters because I have so many water systems I have to check.
No, I haven't tested any redox or dissolved oxygen other than years ago, one of the stores I sell to did a dissolved oxygen test on water from two of my tanks, finding it to be better than he could imagine, so I never tested again.
My testing regeim is that of testing pH, calcium, magnesium, alkalinity and I boost the I.O. that I mix with calcium and magnesium to bring the levels up form what they are originally when mixed. (approx. 1 gram/gallon of salt water for calcium chloride and approx. 7.5 grams of magnesium chloride hexahydrate/gallon of salt water)
I also make my own salt water based on the formula from "Chemical Oceanography" by Frank Milero.
This water is used in my brine production facilities, and, I use it mixed 50/59 with I.O. for all my fish only tanks and the seahorse tank.
I never dose trace elements as it's my belief, right or wrong, that I need to do water changes regularly to REDUCE the trace elements built up as I continually feed foods to my tank. Foods contain almost all trace elements, including iodine forms, and much phosphate, and don't disappear when eaten and the most economical remedy IMO is water changes that appear to work for me
For the redox, I have no equipment to be able to check this but have no reason to expect it to be a problem.
The belief that the problem is the CO2 build up due to so many systems needing gas exchange in a house that is shut up so long for winter and again in air conditioning weather, comes after a long consultation with Randy Holmes-Farley, with my giving him all the information he felt needed for a determination.
The problem is liveable, just not preferable and I keep looking for a way to improve the air quality in the home. (i.e. I presently have a lot of tomatoe, cantaloupe and onion plants growing under lights, and aiding the CO2 problem)
Again, thank you for your thoughtful reply and hopefully I've covered everything.
 
Air quality is something you don't usually see associated with fishrooms, Humidity and cooling issues are. My fish room has 14 tanks, 2-180g w/ 90g sumps, 120g w/20g sump, 9-15g central system w/65g sump, 75g, and a 55g in a 14X14 room. My big concern is keeping humidity below 50% and the air temp at 70F so that the tanks run between 76F-80F depending on the humididty level and temp outside. I am near 1,000 gallons and am looking to drop down to the 180 reef and the 180 cichlid tank with maybe a 5g and 10g grow out tank for small fry. The cost to run a system like this currently is close to $200 a month in electric and really isn't worth it.

I saw your skimmer and I am wondering if the reaction chamber is a 2" pipe. If so you may want to increase everything below the top one foot to 8" and then make the top 12-18"'s out of 3" pipe. This will increase dwell time with the larger volume of water and will skim more because of the longer contact time.

Look into dumping the 802 powerheads and upgrading to Tunze Nano streams in there place. Flow will quadruple and you will use less electric in the process.

If this room is in a basement, I would look into a 1,000 cfm fan unit to vent thru the side of the house. If it is in a room with access to an attic I would vent it thru the roof so that you are not pumping the humidity into the attic where mold could be formed. 1,000 cfm on a timer set by a temp controller would draw in small amounts of fresh air to the area without sacrificng too much heat loss during the winter.

You could also run a vent pipe for intake from the outside to a blower system for your air pumps. Sweetwater makes nice blowers that can run several dozen airstones. This might help also.

Lastly, an ionazation unit could possibly help by eliminating airbourne particles and odors from the room.

There is one more thing, if these tanks are not display tanks you can run rigid 1/4" pipe into the aquariums and bubble the tanks vigourously to expel CO2. This can be done in a sump much like the systems you see bubbling fiercely in live bait storage containers.
 
Air quality is something you don't usually see associated with fishrooms, Humidity and cooling issues are. My fish room has 14 tanks, 2-180g w/ 90g sumps, 120g w/20g sump, 9-15g central system w/65g sump, 75g, and a 55g in a 14X14 room. My big concern is keeping humidity below 50% and the air temp at 70F so that the tanks run between 76F-80F depending on the humididty level and temp outside. I am near 1,000 gallons and am looking to drop down to the 180 reef and the 180 cichlid tank with maybe a 5g and 10g grow out tank for small fry. The cost to run a system like this currently is close to $200 a month in electric and really isn't worth it.
The HRV keeps the humidity below 45%.

I saw your skimmer and I am wondering if the reaction chamber is a 2" pipe. If so you may want to increase everything below the top one foot to 8" and then make the top 12-18"'s out of 3" pipe. This will increase dwell time with the larger volume of water and will skim more because of the longer contact time.
The skimmers are all 4" diameter all the way up, are counter current with the water going in at about the 6 ft height and going out at the 1 1/2 inch level, so basically 6 feet by 4" diameter continuous contact time.
The box you see is one foot by fourteen inches, and I've never seen any skimmer short of those in old waste treatment plants, that could turn out more skimmate. The 2X2" 7" long airstone dispenses approximately one litre of air per second the way they function normally and I can crank up the flow from the Thomas linear compressors to do a lot more than that. I don't really think I'll be rebuilding all my skimmers to improve on their output as no skimmer sold for the hobby can put out what each of these can.

Look into dumping the 802 powerheads and upgrading to Tunze Nano streams in there place. Flow will quadruple and you will use less electric in the process.
First, the cost for me to replace the 802's is prohibitive as I use over 40 of them, and I just don't have that kind of money. Also, the flow rated on the Nano Stream boxes at the LFS specify 660g/min and the 802's are rated I believe at 400g/min. Irregardless, cost is the factor.

If this room is in a basement, I would look into a 1,000 cfm fan unit to vent thru the side of the house. If it is in a room with access to an attic I would vent it thru the roof so that you are not pumping the humidity into the attic where mold could be formed. 1,000 cfm on a timer set by a temp controller would draw in small amounts of fresh air to the area without sacrificng too much heat loss during the winter.
Here we would have a difference of opinion. Before the HRV, I had a 450cfm fan blowing out one of the basement windows where the HRV is now hooked up. It didn't take care of humidity and the gas bill for heat went up tremendously for the 2 winters it was set up. It also caused a negative pressure inside the house that also caused furnace problems.
The HRV brings in 265cfm of fresh air warmed by the outgoing air which exits at the same rate of the incoming air so it is balanced and it's rated efficiency is a maximum 90% depending on temperatures outside, and the speed setting it runs on but it will be a minimum of 75% recovery of heat. Now my humidity sits most of the winter around 38 to 40% in my basement, even with all that open water.

You could also run a vent pipe for intake from the outside to a blower system for your air pumps. Sweetwater makes nice blowers that can run several dozen airstones. This might help also.
I use Thomas linear silent compressors, each one would probably run perhaps at least a hundred tanks in a fish store. The regenerative blowers are louder and don't have as much pressure as I want, but they do move a heck of a lot of air, with ones I know of capable of supplying more than several dozen airstones each.
The Thomas compressors are fed air from the HRV.

Lastly, an ionazation unit could possibly help by eliminating airbourne particles and odors from the room.
Yes, they work great don't they. It was installed when I bought the new furnace and central air.

There is one more thing, if these tanks are not display tanks you can run rigid 1/4" pipe into the aquariums and bubble the tanks vigourously to expel CO2. This can be done in a sump much like the systems you see bubbling fiercely in live bait storage containers.
The tanks are display, even the propagation tank.
As for the production room, the air flow is determined by the flow that the brine shrimp can take. Too much flow literally blows them apart.
The mysids I grow can't take high air bubble turbulence for some reason. When I crank the air up more they die off and I don't know why.
Actually, I'm replacing them with Palaemonetes Vulgaris shrimp which are like a salt water version of a ghost shrimp. Mysids are low demand critters but the PV's are great to gut load and feed to lion fish and many others, especially ones that only eat live food.
I hate to seem so negative when you have thought to help with these suggestions, but sooner or later something might click that will be in the cost range and work. Too expensive and the business would operate at a loss instead of very small profits.
An engineer from LIFEBREATH, manufactures of HRV's for most of the name brands in North America, came to the house and other than going to a commercial HRV, couldn't think of anything that would help and still be economically viable. Even the commercial HRV he said might not improve that much for the added cost.
In the meantime, I add a lot of baked baking soda to keep things going proper in the brine room, and the tanks seem to do ok at the low pH with nothing showing problems due to it. It's better like a week or so ago when we were able to open up the house in the warm weather, but now we're back to the deep freeze again. Summers coming! I'm keeping a watch for it.:look:

p.s. Sure wish this forum had spell check.
 
p.s. Sure wish this forum had spell check.
__________________
You can add it from Google in the tool bar under add-ons or google buttons.
yahoo has one also. You can also search for free spellchecker download. Once installed it will work any where you text on the internet.

The HRV is a cool device that seems to help out. I understand the cost issues. i am downsizing the fish room(consolidating really) because of utility costs increases.

As far as the flow rates on the pumps goes, It is not so much the g.p.h. as it is that the output is dispersed in larger volume rather than in a jet stream, therefore larger turnover overall. I agree they are expensive.

Your pH problem seems related to respiration also. I would say as long as there are no ill effects of the lower pH and that there is adequate O2 in the water column you would be fine.

I also agree counter current skimmer are excellent. They lost favor in the early 90's when the venturi short bodied skimmers came out. After that it was all about being able to fit a skimmer in the sump under the stand. I like your 6'X4" design. I use the MRC-6 that is 5' on my 180g.

How will you keep things cool in the summer?
 
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