Advice - Bad or Good?

fishdaze said:
I was under the impression that most of the bacteria live within the substrate, on surfaces, and within the filter/media.... To me that sounds like changing the water would not strongly inhibit the cycling process except for the fact that you're getting rid of the ammonia that the bacteria are feeding off of... but if you have fish it is being replenished anyway and if you don't... you're adding ammonia anyway so... I fail to see how it would slow down the process. I could be wrong though, just my observation from what I've read and experienced.
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Think about it logically, the beneficial bacteria (bb) feed off of ammonia. If there is only say .1 ppm of ammonia to feed bb, there can only be x amount of bb, but if there was .5 ppm of ammonia, there could be 5x amount of bb. When you do water changes, you're taking out the accumulation of ammonia, not the source. The source is the fish that'll continue to produce the ammonia. It accumulates between your water changes, and you take it out either by a water change, or the bb consumes it.
 
centralharbor said:
Think about it logically, the beneficial bacteria (bb) feed off of ammonia. If there is only say .1 ppm of ammonia to feed bb, there can only be x amount of bb, but if there was .5 ppm of ammonia, there could be 5x amount of bb. When you do water changes, you're taking out the accumulation of ammonia, not the source. The source is the fish that'll continue to produce the ammonia. It accumulates between your water changes, and you take it out either by a water change, or the bb consumes it.
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Good advice to think about it logically so here we go.
If there is enough ammonia in the water to exceed the present bacteria needs, it shows up as ammonia being present in our testing. If there is not more present than the bacteria can use, it looks like a zero to our testing. All I need to grow more bacteria is more ammonia than the present population can use. Anything more than that is harming the fish without adding to the bacterial colony. If you have any ammonia detectable, your bacterial population will grow as fast as if you have the full 5 ppm of a fishless cycle. The only difference is that our fish-in cycle will stop growing when we are fully cycled for the present population, while a fishless cycle will stop growing when it reaches the amount that can produce 5 ppm in a day. Water changes do not slow the fish-in cycle at all unless you somehow remove so much ammonia that you can no longer find any. Nobody changes that much water on purpose.
The nitrite converting bacteria works the same way. Any excess nitrite above the present bacterial population's needs will show up in our testing. ....
 
centralharbor said:
Think about it logically, the beneficial bacteria (bb) feed off of ammonia. If there is only say .1 ppm of ammonia to feed bb, there can only be x amount of bb, but if there was .5 ppm of ammonia, there could be 5x amount of bb. When you do water changes, you're taking out the accumulation of ammonia, not the source. The source is the fish that'll continue to produce the ammonia. It accumulates between your water changes, and you take it out either by a water change, or the bb consumes it.
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I agree but what that doesn't actually say anything about what I stated. I acknowledged that you are removing the ammonia the bacteria eat which will accumulate between changes. If you have fish in the tank, it is a constant source of ammonia which will accumulate to levels that are too high if not removed by bacteria which in a cycle are obviously not in large enough numbers to do so effectively or you wouldn't be doing the cycle in the first place. Obviously you don't want to do too many changes too often because as you stated... there wouldn't be enough ammonia to feed the colonizing bacteria... but if you have the fish in the tank, they're constantly producing the ammonia. I'm not sure why you would do big water changes on a fishless cycle unless you messed something up so I'm not really addressing that topic. Perhaps I'm looking at it differently, not sure. Just thought I would re explain my thoughts. I completely understand both sides of the argument.
 
Well, good news, I just got in from Sushi (A moral dilemma Hmmm...) and measured the water chemistry while getting mentally prepared to change some water.

Ammonia 0
Nitrite .5
Nitrate 10

It looks like I am cycling so I am going to wait the night out and do a water change in the morning when I am more rested.
 
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Oldman and FishDaze are correct. Rabbits do not reproduce faster in the presence of a thousand carrots more than they can eat then they do in the presence of a hundred carrots more than they can eat, and bacteria are the same.
 
Oh boy a debate here lol. I have to agree with much of what ex said in the 1st instance. Before i even started my snail tank i ran my filter on an established tank for several weeks. To give my filter a head start on bacteria bulid up. Just dumping fish IMO seems like cruel and unusual punishment. The water in the bag for one is not going to be at the same temp as the tank. Due to the fact that you have just had them in an unheated bag for transportation. Also the water in the bag is not of the same chemistry as your own water, unless by some stroke of luck your LFS is on the same water source as your own. I used to be lucky enough for this until they retired. So all my now LFS have different hardness, ph etc and so drip acclimaitation is the only way to go for me.
I feel very lucky in some ways as one of my LFS staff members has Advanced Diploma in water quality & filtration and Advanced Diploma in fish biology & fish health and as such is able to offer good advice.

on the other hand, some LFS are only out to make a quick buck and will say what they think you want to hear. My mums boyfriend has taken over my downstairs community tank as his own, and much of the stocking in there is thanks to this particular staff member. He has told Chris that some of the fish he has taken a liking to are not suitable and even as a result lost out on a sale that could have been much more than what he ended up spending. Yet my aunt went to buy a tank for my little cousin, who has fast become a fish fan thanks to my tank, where they proceeded to sell her a tank that was totally unsuitable to be a tropical aquarium, and then sold her a heater to go with it. I have to go out with her today to return that tank and buy one that is suitable.

So the proof is in the pie sometimes so far as some LFS advice goes. I have been Given the advice that i should only do a WC on my tanks once every 2 months. From one LFS. I know what my water chemistry is doing at once a week, so god help my fish if i only did it once every 8 weeks or so. Upon the sale of the tank to my aunt she was told that the 15Litre tank was suitable for 3 or 4 goldfish that can go into the tank once it has been running for 1 week, to which i almost fell off my chair when i was told. The lesson learned here is to have some idea of what you need to begin with. Hence the reason that shes coming to get me today so we can find the right product. hmmm maybe i should shut up now lol.
 
A nice read. I have to agree with Karl and his statements.

As for the OP, if a fishy cycle....you need to be doing the water changes and keep ammonia and nitrites below.25 by a good liquid test kit.

If fish less cycle.....I wait and do one big one at the end.

Concerning the water change issue affecting the cycle..no way. The bacteria are only going to produce so fast. You can have all the ammonia there in the world and they still only multiply at a given rate.
 
stezatois said:
...Advanced Diploma in water quality & filtration and Advanced Diploma in fish biology & fish health ...
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Never heard of these before, where does one go to get them?
 
colinsk said:
You guys call titrations the drip method. In our lab we have digital titrators that measure more accurately than a drip but it is the same thing. I can drip titrate to +-5ppm and digital titrate to +-.1ppm. I don't think that kind of accuracy is needed for my platies and I don't really want to set up to measure things I don't have to. My LFS says that the accuracy of Dip Strips are fine for fish keeping. I was looking for other opinions.
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I just picked up a Tetra drop water test kit. I was wrong it is not a titration. It is calorimetric. In a titration you add a reagent to the water under test and it changes color to either red or blue, you then count how many drops of reagent it takes to change color. The number of drops will tell you your readings.

Calorimetric methods are where you compare the color to a chart. The nice ones have a machine that you insert a test strip into and it reads the color better that you can.

Sorry for the mis-information. All of the water tests I do at work are based on titrations. (Ca, Mg, HCO3, Cl and SO4). I get them from Hach. They also have some very nice kits for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate but they are expensive.
 
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