algae problem - decreased lighting and excel?

My non-traditional thoughts and actions.

montanafish gal said:
ok thanks everyone!
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I would never consider running less than 12 hours of light a day; typically, I run 16 hrs. p/day. I squeeze every bit of fast growth possible from my plants. Indeed, I pay for most (and usually all) of my hobby supplies from selling and trading fish and plants to local plant stores and hobbyists. These supplies I gain are tanks, stands, filters, food, meds, etc. Or, in other words, my hobby costs are next to none!

I believe the greatest benefit of injecting Co2 is causing the PH to lower towards the acid (I believe plants are more responsive to obtaining carbon from decaying vegetable materials.) Indeed, I have had the best luck with plants (and, therefore, the least algae problems) with a PH of ~6.8. I further believe that the greatest benefit one realizes from Flourish Excel is its' algaecidal properties. SeaChem cannot state the algaecidal properties of Excel, for some, as yet, unexplained reason(s) (patents perhaps?)

Personally, I have found that hydrogen peroxide is great for removing/stopping algae blooms/growth. I typically run 1ml p/gal in tanks with algae problems. I run this peroxide treatment for days, even weeks. At times, I have used 1.5ml p/gal, or even higher. Some fish show distress at the 1ml and higher doses, I then run .5ml p/gal in those tanks (you will find some plants can be damaged also, main ones which come to mind are vals); and, the period of treatment at these low doses can turn into months, if peroxide is used alone.

Here is an example of my handling of algae:

Earlier this year, I went on vacation. When I came back from vacation, family business kept me busy for a couple of months. A thirty-five gallon tank of mine developed severe algae problem. I removed the algae from the front and side glass with a scraper. I vacuumed the gravel. I cleaned the filter and replaced the media. I lowered the PH to 6.8. I began using 35ml of hydrogen peroxide p/day, introduced into the intake of the filter--so as it would be gently dispersed into the water column. I used Flourish Excel as per SeaChems instructions, adding it a couple of hours after the peroxide (peroxide is quickly reduced to oxygen and simple water in the aquarium.) Within a couple of weeks, only mere traces of algae could be seen on glass, ornaments, plants and the green water was completely gone. I ceased all treatments when not even a trace of algae could be found in the tank.

Long ago I gave up homebrew methods of Co2 injection. I then went to a large Co2 cylinder and continued the injecting, until I became tired of this also. Now, I use Metricide in place of Flourish Excel to prevent/control algae (I found a very cheap source which is local to me), and introduce carbon to the water column. Currently, I am using a 'green manure' system of providing carbon in a more natural way to the water column. This involves dissolving plant material(s) (such as grass clippings) with hydrochloric and sulfuric acids. Then buffering the resulting 'soup' with calcium hydroxide to near neutral PH. I then inject this 'soup' into the water column to provide carbon (nutrients and micro-nutrients are also being provided by this.) I think this is very close to natural; in that, nature provides the most carbon to aquatic plants, in the wild, in the form of decaying vegetable matter.

And, I like to experiment and refine my methods; I am sure you can tell. If my eyes tell me something, I am quick to find out if they are correct.

Regards,
TA
 
TechAquaria, wow, thanks so much for your reply! You really gave some good advice and alot for me to try. :) I have also heard/read about people doing "black outs" on their tanks to kill off the algae. I wonder, have you done this and does it work? In a planted tank, how many days can you do a black out without hurting your plants?
Thanks!
 
montanafish gal said:
... I have also heard/read about people doing "black outs" on their tanks to kill off the algae. I wonder, have you done this and does it work? In a planted tank, how many days can you do a black out without hurting your plants?
Thanks!
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To tell you the truth, I don't see 'black outs' or reduced lighting as any real treatment for algae problems. At most, a 'black out' only assists another form, or forms, of algae control/treatment you are implementing. Or, in other words, turn the lights out, algae is on the decline. However, turn the lights on and algae immediately begins to grow towards becoming the problem it was in the first place. This is simply unacceptable to me, personally.

What do you and I have plants for? To grow, right? If the cost of fighting the algae is a very noticeable decline in the growth rate of plants, or a decline in the plants apparent vigor and health, I do not see this as an acceptable 'win.' But, that is just me, others may see it differently.

Now having said that, yes; reducing the light to algae will either kill, retard and/or prevent more algae growth--depending on how severe the reduction in light is. So, yes, it does work; and, I have used it myself--it retards algae growth. Now, do I see it as a viable method of algae control/eradication, in and of itself--in ridding one of algae problems? No, I don't--unless combined with some other form or forms of algae treatment(s.)

Personally, I expect to see an immediate acceleration/improvement in plants and plant growth rate equal to the decline in algae growth which is observed; logic dictates to me I should expect this in a near 1:1 ratio! My logic is this, if the algae is dying it should, almost immediately, be broken down by the beneficial bacteria and organisms in the tank. This breakdown should be releasing the nutrients and minerals which the algae had tied up into the water column of the tank. This increase in nutients should promote improvement in plant health and growth which should be, or almost be, immediately seen. And, this is an obivious win-win situation.

I simply wish you to be aware that others, and certainly myself, have non-conventional thoughts, actions and methods we use to combat these problems. And, following that path, even a one day black out takes me too far from a logical path.

However, I would encourage you to experiment and find what works, and works best, for you.

Regards,
TA
 
I'd get a positive ID on the type of algae you have first. Algae always seems to form when there's too much of something, usually caused by a limiting reactant somewhere else. You can never fully get rid of algae once you get it, but you can contain it with a stable environment.

For lights, I would go down to a 6 hour photoperiod and gradually go up as the plants become acclimated to their new environment. Unless your tank is covered in plants, a photoperiod longer than 12 hours isn't going to do much unless you have the right conditions. Also, I would check the kelvin rating on your lights. A ~6500K is best for plants.

As for excel, it will mask but not solve your algae problems. My guess is that your nitrates are high. I try to aim for 10-15ppm nitrates using water changes and KNO3. At this range it is much easier to contain algae.
 
Employing my unconventional thinking and non-conventional methods and techniques, I would respond like this:

You: I'd get a positive ID on the type of algae you have first.

Me: There are no forms of algae which I consider desirable, EXCEPT one--Marimo Balls or Moss Balls. Further, I seek methods which are effective on all forms of undesirable algaes. I simply hold the Marimo Balls from the treatment(s)(they seem to tollerate hydrogen peroxide well.) However, all that said, I love it when people are specific on the forms of algae in their tanks. And, I have found nothing which is as effective as I would like it to be on staghorn algae--my best method(s) of dealing with it are of a mechanical nature.

You: Algae always seems to form when there's too much of something, usually caused by a limiting reactant somewhere else.

Me: All plants, including algae, do a 'thing' called 'luxury uptake' or 'luxury consumption', if too much of one element or another, or even all of them, are available in excess ammounts, the plants will uptake these and hold them, google has tons of data on this phenomenon. In my tanks, you will find an excess of EVERYTHING, including plants--and usually NOT algae.

You: You can never fully get rid of algae once you get it, but you can contain it with a stable environment.

Me: Yes, you can totally rid a tank of algae. If you mean it will NOT remain that way, you are correct. Many algae spores are microscopic and carried on the winds. And, they can enter your tank on many different vectors, including, but not limited to, hands, plants, fish, ornaments, gravel, food, etc. If ever reason calls, I am prepared to go to defcon 5 and employ copper and simazine!, or even worse!

You: For lights, I would go down to a 6 hour photoperiod and gradually go up as the plants become acclimated to their new environment.

Me: Any reduction in light, which would retard the growth of desirable vegetation in my tanks is simply unacceptable.

You: Unless your tank is covered in plants, a photoperiod longer than 12 hours isn't going to do much unless you have the right conditions. Also, I would check the kelvin rating on your lights.

Me: That is my goal, a tank abundant in plants, an over abundance is not particularly viewed as undesirable. Indeed, I always start a new tank with abundant plants, not only does this vastly shorten the cycling time of the tank, the plants will balance the aquarium through luxury uptake and competition with algae and other organisms in the tank. This balance is further enhanced by their uptake of the nutrients in the fish waste (and, other than the main goal of removing the ammonia) and breaking down of organic matter. Or, to say it simply, I am only happy when clipping plants and selling/trading/giving away shoots and new plantlets becomes a real chore.

You: ~6500K is best for plants.


Me: It may well be. I find anything 5000K and above to be acceptable. I have replaced all my expensive lighting with cheap 5500K CFL's, as the expensive lights have expired or become unusable and in need of replacing.

You: As for excel, it will mask but not solve your algae problems.

Me: Excel does NOT work that well for me. Excel (glutaraldehyde) will only help retard and slow algae growth, and I use ~3x dosage (after the recommended first dose) to accomplish this.

You: My guess is that your nitrates are high. I try to aim for 10-15ppm nitrates using water changes and KNO3. At this range it is much easier to contain algae.

Me: When setting up a new tank stocked with plants, or after a water change, I aim for an initial level of 10-20ppm nitrogen. Usually in the form of potassium nitrate. I do not sweat the level of "real" nitrogen, up to and including 40ppm (as long as there is good growth of desirable plants in the aquarium.) Frequently, in neglected tanks of mine, I measure levels as high as 60ppm or even 80ppm. I don't recommend this, I simply state fact(s.)

I did not provide the above to promote argument. Only to provide that some, such as myself, do, do things differently.

Regards,
TA
 
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