Ammo Lock affects water parameters?

[Hydro]

I have been using Wardley's dechlorinator for a while (with each weekly water change) and water parameters have always been good (ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate ~5) and stable. After reading this comparison (http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm) and reading about others' experience with Amquel here, I wanted to give Amquel a try (since Wardley doesn't deal with chloramine as effectively according to the comparison). I couldn't find Amquel so I got Ammo Lock instead (does the same thing according to the link).

After using Ammo Lock, water testing on the following day gave me ammonia 1.5, nitrite ~0.3, and nitrate ~5-10. Immediately, I did about 50% water changes 2 days in a row and switched back to using Wardley's. All values returned to their previous levels (0, 0, ~.5). I wasn't sure whether Ammo Lock was the cause so I gave it another try and the same thing happend. Water values, tested the next day, shot up to 1.5, .3, and 5-10, respectively.

Is Ammo Lock causing false readings? If not, what is it doing to the water that's causing the changes? By the way, gh and kh were unaffected.

Thanks in advance!

 

[RobUK]

I'm not an expert by any means.

But maybe the new stuff your using isnt de-chlorinating your water properly and the excess chlorine is killing off bacteria leading to the spikes.

Have you checked weather you have Chlorine or Chloriamine in your tap water as not all de-chrinsisers deal with both.

 

[anonapersona]

What if...

What if all ammonia was removed from your tank?

What would the bacteria do?

Maybe they would die back a lot.

Then when ammonia appeared agian, what would happen?

You'd probably see a mini-cycle, with an ammonia spike and a nitrite spike.

I think the Ammo- Lock does exactly what is says it will do.

Personally, I'd use it when I was bagging or shipping fish, or when I'd set up an emergency tank, or when the power was out and the filter dead.

I wouldn't use it as a water conditioner.

 

[JSchmidt]

According to the makes of AmmoLock2, Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, any ammonia that is 'locked' in nontoxic form is available to nitrifying bacteria. It also treats chlorine, so as such, it should work for chloramines.

I don't have first hand experience with AmmoLock, but Amquel also detoxifies (complexes?) the ammonia, rendering it harmless to fish but available to bacteria. I use Amquel and have used it during fishless cycling, so I'm reasonably sure that the bacteria aren't starved during its use. I don't know if that says anything for AmmoLock, but it's possible at least...

I do know that ammonia-complexing treatments like Amquel and AmmoLock will give you false positive readings on normal Nessler-based ammonia kits (the kind with a single reagent). The salicylate-based kits (with two reagents) will show accurately the amount of toxic ammonia after use of a complexer. I haven't heard about these products affecting nitrite and nitrate tests, though. I think this is a more likely hypothesis; even if AmmoLock was starving your bacteria of ammonia for a couple days, I'd be surprised if you'd get that big of a die-off.

I know quite a few of us use Amquel as a water treatment for chloramine, and I've not heard of this kind of problem as a consequence of its use.

Good luck!

Jim

 

[RobUK]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
According to the makes of AmmoLock2, Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, any ammonia that is 'locked' in nontoxic form is available to nitrifying bacteria. It also treats chlorine, so as such, it should work for chloramines.

No Chlorine and CHlorimines are two different substantes and if something is only designed to treat for example Chorine it will leave cHlorimines untouched.
Leaving water standing for a few hours will gas off Chlorine but not chlorimine.

The difference between the two is.....
Chlorine: is an antibacterial chemical that will disapate fairly fast after it is added, with only trace elements of what was originally introduced remaining when it gets to your tap (Chlorine in high doses is also leathel to humans)
Chlorimine: Treats bacteria in the same way, BUT doesnt disapate like Chlorine does. Meaning the same level is present when it comes out of the tap as was added in the first instance (chlorimine to my knowledge is not a threat to hums as it is fairly inert and only designed to kill bacteria)

Yeah I never thought about the name "ammo lock" its ovoiusly denying the bacteria in your tank of ammonia hence the boi-system is breaking down. Personnelly I never use any chemicals unless its a dire emergency.

Hope that helps

 

[Hydro]

Thanks for all your replies. AmmoLock may well be doing what it's supposed to do as you all suggested. I just don't feel good about seeing the increased ammonia/nitrite values. Think I'll stop using it and wait till I can locate some Amquel.

Thanks.

 

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by RobUK


No Chlorine and CHlorimines are two different substantes and if something is only designed to treat for example Chorine it will leave cHlorimines untouched.
Leaving water standing for a few hours will gas off Chlorine but not chlorimine.

The difference between the two is.....
Chlorine: is an antibacterial chemical that will disapate fairly fast after it is added, with only trace elements of what was originally introduced remaining when it gets to your tap (Chlorine in high doses is also leathel to humans)
Chlorimine: Treats bacteria in the same way, BUT doesnt disapate like Chlorine does. Meaning the same level is present when it comes out of the tap as was added in the first instance (chlorimine to my knowledge is not a threat to hums as it is fairly inert and only designed to kill bacteria)

Yeah I never thought about the name "ammo lock" its ovoiusly denying the bacteria in your tank of ammonia hence the boi-system is breaking down. Personnelly I never use any chemicals unless its a dire emergency.

Hope that helps

Sorry, but that is just wrong... let me see if I can explain why.

Chloramine is a compound of chlorine and ammonia. Let's say you add a simple dechlorinator to chloraminated water. When you do so, the chlorine in chloramine is neutralized (even with simple sodium thiosulfate, the active component in most dechlorinators), and ammonia is freed. At this point, the water is effectively dechlorinated, but will test positive for ammonia (usually around 1 ppm or less). I have chloraminated water and, at home, I treat it in aging tanks with nothing but generic sodium thiosulfate. The thiosulfate knocks out the chlorine (tests confirm dechlorination) and the ammonia is then scavenged by the nitrifying bacteria that live in the aging tanks.

What makes treatments like Amquel and AmmoLock so handy is their ability to not only neutralize the chlorine in chloramine, but to also detoxify the ammonia freed when its bond with the chlorine is broken. I agree that the fewer chemicals used, the better, but I'd rather use chemicals proven safe with fish than expose my fish to ammonia from chloramines.

Also, chloramine DOES dissipate on its own, but at a much slower rate than simple chlorine. Water treated with chloramine will be free of chlorine after a period of a couple weeks.

I think it's rather unlikely that AmmoLock is causing any die-off of bacteria; much more likely, as I noted above, is that it's interfering with the tests.

Jim

 

[Blueiz]

confused

I am using ammo lock at the moment while my tank is cycling. Here is my question. I understand everything about the "regular" ammonia tests showing high ammonia levels because they are reading total ammonia, not just the gaseous form which is the harmful one. I bought an ammonia alert and placed in my aquarium to test for the harmful ammonia since I am using this product. It is showing my ammonia to be safe. My question is when will the regular test go back to normal? Here is what readings I have as far as the nitrite and ammonia, which the way I understand it is that your ammonia will spike, then your nitrites will go up, then your nitrates will start. The reason I am saying this is becauseis my test indicate my ammonia is off the charts at 8 ppm, but my nitrites are 0, and my nitrates are 10ppm. I am not inexperienced at fishkeeping, have been doing so for several years, but this blows my mind. I would think that my tank has completely cycled because of my nitrite and nitrate reading. A little history on the tank of which I am speaking. It has been set up for about 6 weeks, had filter media and water from existing 2 year old aquarium added to it, it has mollies (very dirty fish) and guppies in it. I know I probably stocked it a little to soon, fish are doing ok. Any thoughts on my ammonia reading? Is ammo lock causing me to have a high ammonia reading even though there is actually no ammonia there?
A little to add about ammonia. It is only harmful to fish if ph is 7 or above, and the way most regular tests work is they raise the ph of the water you are testing and that is why they will not work when you are using products such as ammo lock and prime.
Thanks in advance for any replies!!