Ammonia .25 to 2.0 in 5 Hours?

Roan Art

Roan Art

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Oct 7, 2005
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I have a 36gal planted tank that is refusing to cycle with Bio-Spira. Possible the Spira I have isn't good, but if that's the case it's not the LFS's fault. Anyhow this whole thing is driving me nuts. I'm doing waterchanges like mad to keep the ammonia down for the fish. Anyhoodle, can someone explain this:

Two days ago I did my usual evening water test (I test in the morning and at night on this tank):
Ammonia .5, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5.0

I did a 40% water change and checked the ammonia: .25

Next morning, I did a 50% water change and I checked again:
Ammonia .25, Nitrites .25, Nitrates 5.0

I decided to do another 50% water change 5 hours later (I have kids, natch) to try to get the ammonia down to close to 0. But the readings were:

Ammonia 1.0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 10

Can someone tell me what goes on here? Did my fish decide to go on a free-for-all urination binge? It must have been close to 2.0 BEFORE I did the water change. I took some of my water to the LFS and they got the same readings.

I used Prime to declorinate, so any ammonia that could have come from the tap should have been removed. How could it jump from .25 to close to 2.0 in 5 hours?

My fish look fine. Even the 3 little neons and 1 glolite were schooling around and riding the bubbles. None of them look stressed and they didn't look stressed before I changed the water.

Please edumacate me,
Roan
 
Oh, the guy at the LFS (they're good peoples there) was very sympathic and said that every time he even tries to futz with his freshwater tanks at home, they go haywire. His salt ones he has no problem with. He said it might be better if I put the test kit away for a day or so and stop worrying so much about my rainbows. I'll admit I've lost some sleep over this :o but I take animal ownership very seriously. What do you think? Should I go by how my fish feel for a day or so, or keep testing and driving myself nuts?

I haven't touched the kit yet this morning, but it's calling out to me.

Roan
 
RELAX the Prime took care of it!

You must have chloramine treated water! Add Prime and the chlorine is broken out and neutralized, and the left over ammonia is bound up so that it is available to bacteria and plants but not harmful to fish. Your tester is probably the one-bottle sort that measures all ammonia, even the stuff that is not avaiable to hurt the fish. If you want to be certain, you can get a different type of ammonia tester, or just trust that the Prime and the plants will take care of it.

Now, the Prime may be interferring with the BioSpira by locking up the ammonia but it may still be available to the bacteria as it is with normal bacteria, you need to do research on that, but really the plants ought to be what makes this work for you.
 
anonapersona said:
You must have chloramine treated water! Add Prime and the chlorine is broken out and neutralized, and the left over ammonia is bound up so that it is available to bacteria and plants but not harmful to fish.
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Really? That's how it works? Man, I was wondering about that. I mean, I need *some* ammonia for the bacteria to breed and if Prime removes, blah blah. Whew! Good to know.

Your tester is probably the one-bottle sort that measures all ammonia, even the stuff that is not avaiable to hurt the fish. If you want to be certain, you can get a different type of ammonia tester, or just trust that the Prime and the plants will take care of it.
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Uh uh, it's an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals kit and the ammonia test is the two-part one.

I have a Red Sea Master Deluxe yadda yadda test kit coming (whoop!) cause I've gotten into wanting to know EVERYTHING that's in this darn tank and the others I have in my house. I'll test the ammonia with that as well and see how they compare.

Now, the Prime may be interferring with the BioSpira by locking up the ammonia but it may still be available to the bacteria as it is with normal bacteria, you need to do research on that, but really the plants ought to be what makes this work for you.
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Ah ah, I hear yah. That's why I didn't do another water change when it was steady at .25. The fish weren't stressed and I knew the Spira needed food so I left it. I didn't like that .5 reading tho.

Okay, so you are, ah, pretty much saying what my LFS guy said: leave it be for a couple of days. Keep an eye on your fishes and see how it goes? They're right beside me (good lord I just realized that my art studio has become a fish room) and I can see them easily.

Thanks SO much for your reply. I feel a little better.

Roan
 
Whether the test kit is the one bottle sort or not doesn't matter, that's just packaging. The reagents can be delivered in one bottle or a couple. What matters is the type of test. There are 2 commonly used chemical tests for ammonia, I don't know which brands use which off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure that the Nessler method will pick up ammonia and chloramines.

It's easy enough to verify: test your tap water for ammonia. If nothing happens, try adding a drop (or 2) of Prime to the test tube and wait.

Although Prime and Amquel bind ammonia into a form that is safe for fish but still bioavailable for bacteria, the fact that it's bound must certainly make it more difficult for the bacteria to use. They do have to break the bonds securing the ammonia, after all. I suspect that the BioSpira is working, but because you've got chloramines you're always going to test positive for ammonia, and because the ammonia is bound up (a good thing, a necessary thing) your tank will take a little longer to cycle.

FYI, this is another possible reason for your pH drops. It would depend on the molecular construct of the ammonia binding compound in Prime, but ammonia is basic, so I would expect its removal from the water to decrease pH, as will bioacidification. Also, since your tank is still cycling, there are bound to be some wonky chemistries happening, so it's best not to stress over exact test levels until everything settles.
 
i went through exactly what you are about a year ago. I read the info stated above then too. I think I was doing everyother day 30%-50% water changes until cycled, and since the tests gave readings that were "false" to the fish's safety, I just went with it, knowing the frequent changes were enough. I only lost one fish, that seemed prone to stress anyway- it was low on the tank totem pole.

I learned not to do anything drastic and that changes you make aren't necessarily instantaneous, so be patient.
 
Thank you, every one, for your replies.

I don't know if any of you were advocating that I don't do a waterchange, I wasn't sure.

I did what the LFS guy said: I left it alone. With an ammonia reading of 1.0, I left it alone. I didn't do a water change. Last change I did was 50% at 6pm yesterday. My readings after that change were: ammonia 1.0, nitrites 0, nitrates 10

I left it. And I JUST tested the tank water again, 28 hours later. Here are the results:

Ammonia: .25
Nitrites: .125 (it's between 0 and .25)
Nitrates: 10
pH: 7.4

It went from 1.0 to .25 on it's own. The fish are fine. They are eating like PIGS! Man it's funny when you see a glo-lite with a bloodworm hanging out of his mouth. I thought he would choke to death, but he managed to eat it. Brave little guy swam up to where 6 sub-adult rainbows were in a feeding frenzy and nabbed a huge bloodworm.

I ain't touching the tank tomorrow either. No water changes unless the values go up. If I can get through tomorrow, then I'll know the Bio-Spira bacteria has colonized well.

It's working itself out. I hope.

Roan
 
Lookin' good.

If you want to add about 1 tsp. per gallon of table salt, it will reduce any NO2 toxicity, but at those levels I don't think you need concern yourself. Keep an eye on NO2, the fact that you have NO3 means that you do have NO2 nitrifiers, but you just want to make sure that they're getting the job done.

I think that you mentioned in another thread that you added biospira, but that your tank volume was larger than the maximum volume in the pack? This is probably why the biospira isn't sufficient to completely cycle your tank, but the fact that you have both strains in your filter and healthy is a huge step in the right direction.
 
happychem said:
I think that you mentioned in another thread that you added biospira, but that your tank volume was larger than the maximum volume in the pack? This is probably why the biospira isn't sufficient to completely cycle your tank, but the fact that you have both strains in your filter and healthy is a huge step in the right direction.
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Actually the first time I used it I dumped in about ½ a 90 gallon package. Second time I used the rest of that package. The third time, I used the 30 gallon package. The fourth and final time I used another 30 gallon package and didn't do any more water changes. Good gravy, that's over $50 in Bio-Spira alone.

Blargh!
Roan
 
YES!!!!​

Readings as of tonight:

Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 10
pH 7.4

Man I feel better! :thm: All I had to freaking do was STOP changing the water out! Another HUGE thank you to everyone who advised me on this. Geez! I'd kiss the LFS guy as well, but hubby wouldn't like that :P I'll just thank him next time I go in.

Whew!
Roan
 
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