Ammonia can kill nitrifying bacteria?

[terror]

thanks, I'm using a sera PH tester which can test to a level of 4.
our tap water only has chlorine, ph comes out at 7. but dkh of our tap water is 2, itgs really soft. I've had this problem a few times before. I've added lots of crushed corals to my other tank, but not this tank.
I have a 55 gallon drum, I'll try to use this for aging water. I Normally do weekly 30% water changes, but my practice is to drain the tank, add the water conditioner and add the tap water into the tank.

 

[terror]

thanks, I used to do 80% water change, but i noticed my tanks glass will become cloudy after a huge water change, is this normal?
I'm currently using up a bottle of ammolock every 3 days since my tank is 350 gallon.
I'll try to do a huge water chaneg later, and get some more dirt from my other sumps to try to see my sump filter.

I think arowanas produce lots of ammonia, because as my previous expriences , the ammonia jumps really high a day after water change if m bio filter failed.

 

[RiVerfishgirl]

Your tapwater's low kH and pH is ok, AS LONG as you are doing constant water changes to keep nitrates (which will deplete buffering) very low and watching the kH and pH in the tank closely. 30% water changes weekly just are not enough to accomplish that, so you end up in the situation you have now where your buffering becomes depleted and the pH drops off the charts killing your biological filtration.

There's nothing wrong with you adding crushed coral since your kH and pH are already low and I'd continue doing that.
If you are going to age water in a drum, then you may want to add a bit of baking soda and try to get your kH up to about twice what it is now. And you will need to up your water change schedule for sure and keep monitoring those kH and pH numbers, along with your nitrates (once cycled again).

You didn't say what your tank size and fish sizes are. Did you get the arowana(s) as juveniles? 30% weekly water changes may have been sufficient at first, but as they grow you need to up that significantly considering the amount of waste they produce.

 

[DocTim]

high levels of ammonia do not kill the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) but cause a shift inthe species from ones that work in low ammonia environments to those that work in high ammonia environments. This results in a short term loss of ammonia oxidation as the high level AOB start to take over but once you lower the ammonia level to a more normal aquarium level the AOBs shift back resulting in another short term ammonia spike. The AOB we want in aquaria are the ones that grow at low ammonia levels (less than about 5 ppm) so that is why it is best to keep the ammonia concentration low to that you don't get the population changes

 

[RiVerfishgirl]

I used to do 80% water change, but i noticed my tanks glass will become cloudy after a huge water change, is this normal?

There are various reasons that could happen. I'd have to see what you mean by cloudy to determine why that might have been happening. Might be something in your tapwater, or you stired up detritus, had some kind of algae bloom, etc.
If you're asking whether it's something that may have been detrimental to your fish, probably not, just unsightly.

I think arowanas produce lots of ammonia, because as my previous expriences , the ammonia jumps really high a day after water change if m bio filter failed.

Most large fish produce a lot of ammonia due to the amount of food they'll eat. You could be stocking any other carnivorous fish of similar size and have the same issue. Carnivores generally produce quite a bit of waste.

One issue with the large waste production is that you end up with a large amount of nitrates. With soft water, nitrates, being acidic, will deplete your buffering and cause a pH crash.
You need to be doing large weekly, possibly biweekly, water changes and closely monitoring your nitrates when housing large carnivorous fish.
I know that's a lot of water to change out on such a large tank, but there's not really a way to get around it unless you're going to denitrate some other way, or significantly cut down on your fish load.

 

[RiVerfishgirl]

high levels of ammonia do not kill the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) but cause a shift inthe species from ones that work in low ammonia environments to those that work in high ammonia environments. This results in a short term loss of ammonia oxidation as the high level AOB start to take over but once you lower the ammonia level to a more normal aquarium level the AOBs shift back resulting in another short term ammonia spike. The AOB we want in aquaria are the ones that grow at low ammonia levels (less than about 5 ppm) so that is why it is best to keep the ammonia concentration low to that you don't get the population changes

Interesting.

Still leaves me wondering why my tank left with high (8ppm) ammonia for several months never did "cycle" though. Why would the bacteria that nitrify in high ammonia environments never have shown up? I tested daily and ammonia remained the same, never did see nitrites show up.

 

[Cerianthus]

"You need to get that ammonia down to at most .50ppm for the sake of your fish. You are not doing enough water changes to keep the ammonia low enough for your fish load. 30% daily is just not that much. If your ammonia is 8 and you do a 30% water change you're only bringing the ammonia down to about 5.6ppm. If you then immediately do another 30% water change you've brought it down to 3.92ppm. Another immediate 30% water change would equal about 2.744ppm. Get the picture? You're just not removing enough water to get that ammonia down significantly
"raising the pH will make the ammonia more toxic"


No need to increase the pH in presence of NH4+/NH3by using CC as improper use of CC may cause sudden increase in pH beyond threshold.. Why convert them to toxic form when they are more in non-toxic form as pH turns to acidic side???
When NH3/No2 are controlled, then you can use CC to raise/buffer when necessary.
BB exist and function well enough to handle normal/usual bioload even at 6.0, perhaps even bit lower.
And why worry about NH3 at all when they are in non toxic form as you pointed out and as pH is raised gradually above 6.0, BB will reestablish themselves to start oxidizing NH4+/NH3 to NO2 and eventually to NO3 for free.
Sudden increase in bioloads will take time for BB to increase in popuation at any usual pH kept for fish tanks.

As far as your % calculation, a stoichiometry is not an elementary math as many will point out from their experimences that 30% wc doesnt necessarily shows 30%reduction in NH3/NO2. It's lot more complicated than simple math. Do you get it?

As far as Ammolock, why lock up NH3 when such can be oxidized to less toxic NO3 by BB as they reestablish and these will go against what one is trying to achieve which is to establish needed population of BB to handle usual bioloads.

As far as Zeolite, again no need since NH3 can be handled as explaned above so why waste money. Beside, one may need truckful load of Zeolite and again, why go agaisnt what you are trying to achieve, BB.

Conclusion: No need to worry about increase in NH3 when pH is below 7. As pH is GRADUALLY increase above 6.0 BB will reestablish themselves to handle bioloads. All this may take time but no chemicals/additives needed.
I would be concerend with NO2 which may increase fast as NH3 is oxidized to NO2 by BB. Such can be controlled via small frequent WC and controlled feeding.

 

[Cerianthus]

high levels of ammonia do not kill the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) but cause a shift inthe species from ones that work in low ammonia environments to those that work in high ammonia environments.


DrTim,

Can you provide/pm me the links to such scientific abstracts/books and authors? Thanx in advance.

 

[terror]

Thanks, I've been measuring my nitrate level before every water chaneg and it was at 40 PPM, I will try to get my ammonia level down later, will try to do a really big water change. I've also added some crushed corals as i've noticed during cycling that the ph does drop really fast when my tanks water is really soft, the hard part is trying to balance it at a ph of 7.
Really really appreciate help from you guys and gals here

 

[RiVerfishgirl]

Ceranthius, the pH of 5 was at the lowest point but they've already raised it to above neutral now.

my ph is currently at 7 - 7.5

So the ammonia is already more toxic.
If they already added the crushed coral and the pH has been brought up then I don't see a point to crashing the pH again to manage the ammonia toxicity when they are adding ammo lock already, especially since this may stall the cycle or significantly extend cycle time. And discontinuing the ammo lock after the pH has already been brought up wouldn't be the greatest idea.

As far as your % calculation, a stoichiometry is not an elementary math as many will point out from their experimences that 30% wc doesnt necessarily shows 30%reduction in NH3/NO2. It's lot more complicated than simple arithmatics.

It doesn't show an exact reduction compared to the percentage of water you remove, but it's pretty close IME.
Simplistic explanation, but the point was that the current water change schedule is not nearly sufficient.

As far as Ammolock, why lock up NH3 when such can be oxidized to less toxic NO3 by BB as they reestablish and these will go against what one is trying to achieve which is to establish needed population of BB to handle usual bioloads.

Because right now the ammonia is not being converted. The biological bacteria are the best way to reduce ammonia, but in a case where the filtration has crashed there needs to be another means to detoxify.

I'm not sure what you mean by ammo lock will "go against what one is trying to achieve" since the ammonia will still be available for the bacteria to convert. Ammo lock doesn't remove the ammonia nor convert it to a form unavailable to the bacteria. This goes for something like Prime and Amquel also. You can use them while cycling and also in an established aquarium and the ammonia will still be available for the bacteria. The OP is already using it as a dechlorinator anyway.

Another problem with using pH to detoxify ammonia and discontinuing the ammo lock, is that the pH will be brought up either way by water changes (you can't even trust that your tap water's pH will stay consistent).
I also don't think it's necessarily productive to allow massive pH swings and crashes. Yeah, a lower pH will detoxify ammonia, but by allowing your water to remain unbuffered you have little control of how far the pH crashes. A pH of 5 was tested, but is that as low as it went? We don't know.

As far as Zeolite, again no need since NH3 can be handled as explaned above so why waste money. Beside, one may need truckful load of Zeolite and again, why go agaisnt what you are trying to achieve, BB.

My problem with zeolite is that it DOES remove the ammonia from the water column making it unavailable for bacterial colonies to consume. This is not the case with ammo-lock. A certain amount of zeolite may be ok due to the fact that it will probably become depleted before all ammonia is removed, but I can't know how much the person is adding.
You will still establish colonies while using ammo lock. Your current colonies will still be able to consume the ammonia even while using ammo lock for your normal water changes. This also goes for Prime, Amquel, and similar dechlorinators.