Ammonia ? Need Immediate HELP!

Roan, everything you ever wanted to know about water chem, but were afraid to ask:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=267193#post267193

Roan and indiginess are on the right track with their advice. The ammonia you are testing from your tap is most likely chloramines. Call your local water provide and ask them if they use chloramines. You may also ask them to send you their annual assesment of water parameters. They test more regularly than annually, of course, but they will publish an annual assesment which will contain the annual averages. These can be very useful as they give you an idea of what to expect from your tap water. Also, ask them if they use polyphosphates to buffer the water.

As for using tap vs. RO. Use a good quality dechlorinator like Prime or Amquel + which not only break the Cl-N bond, but also bind the resulting ammonia. You will still be able to detect it with your kit, as will the bacteria be able to use it, but it will not be harmful for your fish. Using RO is fine, but it adds a level of unnecessary complexity for most aquarists. Essentially you're paying someone to take everything out of the water, then buying that stuff back and adding it back in.

As long as you can detect NO2, add 1 tsp. salt per gallon of tank water. The salt can be water softening salt, table salt, or aquarium salt it all amounts to the same stuff but with different price tags (I listed them in increasing order of price ;) ). The Cl- will decrease the NO2 toxicity while you get a handle on your tank's cycle.
 
Thanks, Happy Chem.

So the pH is not a problem then?

FWIW I'd just use table salt. Iodinized is fine, but last time I went to the grocery store I grabbed a box of non-iondized. Wasn't because I was worried about the iodine, but so that my family would leave the box alone :)

Roan

PS
Happy Chem,
Love that article you wrote and I'm *just* getting to the point where I can understand some of it :) A week ago it was all gobbley-gook!
 
Wouldn't base an assumption on that. My pH is 7.4 to 7.8 out of the tap -- KH runs 2-3 I've having to use coral buffers in my tanks for CO2 injection.
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The assumption has a little bit og range, but is not usually far off. My Kh is 2-3 ppm and Ph is 7.6-7.8. The variables come with phosphate buffers which are used by many municipalities, and also height above sea level. In any case the water has to be gassed off before accurate testing can be done. Most water pipes carry elevated (above normal atmospheric exchange) co2 levels.


RO right is a decent product which adds many beneficial things. The Sodium always concerned me, but without knowing the ratio's I cannot say if it is an issue. The primary concern I have is that RO right does not have carbonate buffer in it, and that is probably the most important thing to add when usuing RO water.


Heck, the high pH is more of a concern than the ammonia.
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I'll respectfully disagree with Roan on this one. Ph numbers are pretty insignificant if the other factors in your tank are understood. The thread linked at the end of this paragraph is a good preliminary discussion, The chemistry thread linked by Happychem will clarify further and is far more in depth.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61415&highlight=Daveedka+terrible

All in all it is easier, cheaper, and more stable to use tap water. I have kept Oscars in very hard high Ph water and see no reason to worry about it. My old house had well water that tested somewhere in the 8.8-9.0 range. the oscars don't care at all. RO water is really more hassle than it is worth except in really extreme conditions with verypicky life forms. I'd go back to all tap water and deal with the chloramine issue some other way.

Okay, now, enter de-chlorinators. De-chlorinators are the chemicals we use to make chlorine harmless. It also works on chloramines. They cannot remove chlorine or chloramine, they can only render them harmless. So, what happens is this: chloramine is made from ammonia + chlorine. When you test your water, you are testing for ammonia, not chlorine. The ammonia reads on your test because the ammonia (chloramine) is still there, it's just "inert". Your bacteria can eat it and your plants can use it, but it won't harm the fish.
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I agree with this with a couple of qualifiers added.
Only two commercial dechlorinators that I know of actually bind the ammonia and make it harmless. Those would be "Prime" and "Amquel +".
Virtually every dechlorinator on the market claims to handle chloramines. And In reality they do. the neutralize the chlorine portion and release the free ammonia. So technically no more chloramines, but still not good for your fish. If You have chloramines and I would say you definately do. then Use either "prime" or Amquel + avaiod all others. These two product will neutralize the chlorine and Also Bind the ammonia into ammonium which is harmless to fish as roan mentioned.

As long as you can detect NO2, add 1 tsp. salt per gallon of tank water. The salt can be water softening salt, table salt, or aquarium salt it all amounts to the same stuff but with different price tags (I listed them in increasing order of price ). The Cl- will decrease the NO2 toxicity while you get a handle on your tank's cycle.
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This is definately a good reccomendation. Some form of CL should be added to help with the effects of nitrite. NaCL is probably the easiest and most common, KCL (nu Salt) or CaCl (driveway heat Ice melter) no matter what you use it should be added until the nitrites are testing 0.


HTH
Dave
 
I bought Prime on Wednesday of last week and started using it. I really don't understand it well even though I've read the directions repeatedly. It says to use 1 capful per 50 gallons of water. Does this mean I use one capful only if I change 50 gallons of water (my tank is only 75 gallons)? What if I only change 25% or 35% of the water, then how much do I add? I've been afraid I would overdose the fish so I've probably put in less than I should. Any clarification would help. I've read on a site about the different dechlorinators - I've read a little about Amquel on the web (a site that compares water conditioner products) and it said that all it does is deal with chlorine/chloramine, it does not bind heavy metals or have a slime coat protector. So if I try Amquel do I also need to add a product like Tetra AquaSafe (which the site says does all of the above)? Is Amquel better than Prime, is it easier to understand the directions? If it still shows up on the kit tests how do I know that it is working? When does it stop showing up on the test if I'm doing water changes frequently and it's in my tap water. I'm so confused. I didn't know there was so much science to this. I should have studied more in school. The only LFS that sells BIO-Spira is closed on Monday and Tuesday so I won't be able to get it until Wednesday. How serious do you think that is. Thanks for the help and sorry for writing and not understanding so much.
Also, Are you all saying that I need to add 75 teaspoons (75 gallon tank) of Aquarium salt on top of the other stuff (Bio-Spira, Amquel or Prime, AquaSafe)? Just trying to clear something up.
Thanks, Bridget
 
daveedka said:
The assumption has a little bit og range, but is not usually far off. My Kh is 2-3 ppm and Ph is 7.6-7.8. The variables come with phosphate buffers which are used by many municipalities, and also height above sea level. In any case the water has to be gassed off before accurate testing can be done. Most water pipes carry elevated (above normal atmospheric exchange) co2 levels.
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My phosphates right out of the tap are off the charts at 2.0+ and in the tank after a week drop to 1.0.

RO right is a decent product which adds many beneficial things. The Sodium always concerned me, but without knowing the ratio's I cannot say if it is an issue. The primary concern I have is that RO right does not have carbonate buffer in it, and that is probably the most important thing to add when usuing RO water.
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That's what I was sorta alluding to at wanting to know what her KH was. Didn't know how to say it tho, and I couldn't find that article on pH that you were working on. Heck, I couldn't even remember who was working on it. Sorry! Major brain outage here -- all I remembered was that there was a reference to pH of 8.8 and wasn't sure if it was good or bad :)

I'll respectfully disagree with Roan on this one. Ph numbers are pretty insignificant if the other factors in your tank are understood. The thread linked at the end of this paragraph is a good preliminary discussion, The chemistry thread linked by Happychem will clarify further and is far more in depth.
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Well, I was sorta trying to imply that the ammonia wasn't a cause for concern at all so long as the correct dechlorinators were used :)

What threw me off was the use of the RO water. I have no experience with it and no idea how it would affect the chemistry. Does RO have KH at all? I would think no or very low? Would it drive down her KH? I thought yes. What would happen if she had a low KH and it was dropped lower? Tap water 8.8, tank water 7.4. That's what started red-flagging the pH for me. Heck, I think I just confused myself :) Is any of that correct or am I totally off base?

Gonna re-read that article again and see if it makes more sense now.

Appreciate you and Happy Chem for adding to the discussion and correcting my mistakes.

If someone could explain what the impact of RO on tap water would be (KH etc.,.), if at all, I would appreciate it.

Thanks!
Roan
 
RO water has a KH of 0. This means that there is no buffer in the water. After CO2 dissolves into the water a liquid pH test will show a pH below 7. An electronic pH probe will bounce all over the place and give no useful reading.

Its effect on water chemistry is to reduce the amount of TDS, and hence buffers, in the water. The net effect is a lower pH.

rockabellab, as far as dosing your dechlor goes just scale the dose according to your water change volume. Get a little 5 mL syringe and measure the volume of your cap (it's probably around 5 mL), then just use the syringe to deliver the appropriate dose. Err on the high side. You won't do any harm by overdosing, within reason.

The binding of heavy metals is bunk. Where are they going? Are they coming out of solution? Nope, still floating around, just bound up in a chelate, until the chelate comes undone, then it's back free in the water. So, does it do any harm to bind the metals? No, but it doesn't provide any benefits either. It's just a marketing gimmick.

Slime coat protection? Fish secrete their slime coat as needed. Their mucous coating is always there and they're always producing more and sloughing off the older coat. (Editorial note: that was a fun use of their, there, and they're ;) ). Yet another marketing gimmick, for all intents and purposes, it could just be some salt to irritate the fish and stimulate more mucous production.

FWIW, I've no faith in Tetra products or any of their claims, largely based on their "Easy Balance" product which is snake oil of the worst variety.
 
rockbellab said:
I bought Prime on Wednesday of last week and started using it. I really don't understand it well even though I've read the directions repeatedly. It says to use 1 capful per 50 gallons of water. Does this mean I use one capful only if I change 50 gallons of water (my tank is only 75 gallons)? What if I only change 25% or 35% of the water, then how much do I add? I've been afraid I would overdose the fish so I've probably put in less than I should. Any clarification would help.
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The directions for dosing confused me as well.

If you are adding water back in from a bucket, treat the bucket only. If you are adding water directly from the tap, ie via a Python or hose, treat the entire tank.

For example, say you remove 20 gallons of water from your 75 gallon tank and have 2x10 gallon buckets of water to replace it. Treat each bucket with 1 ml of Prime.

If you remove 20 gallons of water and are putting the water back in with a hose from the tap, then treat the entire tank -- 1 capful (50gallons) + 2½ ml.

Roan
 
So in summary what Happy Chem is saying here, and I agree 150%, is:

All you need is Prime or Amquel +. Nothing else. No RO. No slime coat protection. No metal binder thingies. No voo-doo.

Just Prime or Amquel+. Those are the only chemicals you need to add.

Roan
 
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I will get the kH test and test all of the levels again this evening (should post around 6pm). I have prime already and will just stick with it for the time being. As I previously stated I won't be able to pick up more BIO-Spira until Wednesday but I will get it then and continue to keep you all posted. Thanks for all of your help. You have been very patient with me.
Bridget
 
Hold on the KH test.

Happy Chem -- is the KH test a good idea or no?

I forgot -- the salt. Okay, you can put 75 teaspoons in, but that would be a pain in the patookus. You could do one of the following:

3 teaspoons = 1 tablespoon = 25 tablespoons
25 tablespoons = 1.5625 cups [US] or 1 ½ cup + 1 teaspoon [US]

Roan

Oh, and as for the ammonia reading after using Prime -- you'll just have to trust that the ammonia really isn't there. Watch the oscars. If it was there they'd be in a lot of trouble.

Roan
 
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