It does not look like any of the HITH pictures that I found on the web. Yesterday it looked like a piece of dried up something (looked kind of like dried tan toast, same texture) about the size of the point of a pen or pencil. Today it has sunk into a perfect hole in his head right above his eye. It looks like it goes about a 1/4" down and if I look really close with a flashlight I can still see the dried (bread looking) thing. It is a perfect hole, not sunken in like hole in the head pictures. There was nothing on his head yesterday morning other than regular sensory pits. He's very healthy. Could a piece of debris sink into his head perfectly like that and if so how will it come out? Things just keep getting weirder around here.
Ammonia ? Need Immediate HELP!
- Thread starter rockbellab
- Start date
No, you're right. It changes chlorine into a safe compound, so in a sense it is gone or removed. In another sense, it's not gone, it's just changed. Sort of a philosophical "life after death" argument -- are we really gone or have we just changed?daveedka said:
Too bad we can't test for that *snort*Man, that's odd. That came right out of nowhere and it usually takes a few cups of coffee for my weird side to kick in :coffee:
All weirdness and kidding aside, I think it's just a matter of how we view it. To me it's not removed, it's changed, which is why I stated as thus. I didn't want to expound on that because it was the ammonia that was the "visible" issue with Bridget and not the chlorine.
Have you tested for chlorine prior to using a dechlorinator? I get a positive ammonia and negative chlorine regardless of when I test. Is this a limitation of the tests, or is it possible to bind ammonia and chlorine in different amounts? Meaning that one chloramine sample can have less or more chlorine as a component than another sample of chloramine. Don't quite understand why my ammonia test picks up chloramine and my chlorine test does not.
Roan
happychem said:Actually Roan, I've not been keeping aquaria nearly as long as Dave has, but I do have a degree in chemistry and am currently studying chemical oceanography. These have helped me immensely in sorting through the masses of junk out there and have really sped the learning process. Fish keeping is just science, after all.
daveedka said:
Education is nothing unless you continue to gain it and use it. Experience is nothing unless you learn from it. When you combine those two things, in any order, and a desire to do your best, you have an unbeatable team at your disposal.
You both have those elements in differing orders. I'm just really glad you're both here and willing to guide us
My 5 cents on life, the universe and everything,
Roan
PS
Man, you both make me feel OLD! Unfair!
Thiosulfate converts chlorine into chloride. Two molecules of thiosulfate are required for each molecule of chlorine.
As for the binding of ammonia, it may be in the form of ammonium. In order for the ammonia to remain safe, it would have to stay bound in the safe form, so there has to be a chelate-like compound to keep it essentially out of the water until the bacteria get to it. Ammonia has a pair of free electrons, so a chelate-like molecule with a positively charged (or at least polar positive) functional group could do the job. Alternatively, ammonium is positively charged, so it could associate with a negatively charged functional group. In any case, the compound would be removed from the system and as long as the binding isn't too strong, the bacteria can still oxidize the ammonia to nitrite.
As for the HITH-type maladie, for now the best that you can do is keep up with water changes, feed them a high quality, fresh food, and wait. I've never heard of a piece of debris burrowing into a fish before.
As for the binding of ammonia, it may be in the form of ammonium. In order for the ammonia to remain safe, it would have to stay bound in the safe form, so there has to be a chelate-like compound to keep it essentially out of the water until the bacteria get to it. Ammonia has a pair of free electrons, so a chelate-like molecule with a positively charged (or at least polar positive) functional group could do the job. Alternatively, ammonium is positively charged, so it could associate with a negatively charged functional group. In any case, the compound would be removed from the system and as long as the binding isn't too strong, the bacteria can still oxidize the ammonia to nitrite.
As for the HITH-type maladie, for now the best that you can do is keep up with water changes, feed them a high quality, fresh food, and wait. I've never heard of a piece of debris burrowing into a fish before.
So one would have to have a chloride test to detct that?happychem said:
Lemme see if I understand this: we have chloramine, which is a chemical reaction of ammonia and sodium hypochlorite (chlorine bleach).
Thiosulfate converts the chlorine in the chloramine to chloride, which is not detectable with a chlorine test.
I just read that:
"the degree to which ammonia forms the ammonium ion depends on the pH of the solution"
I heard someone mention in passing about very high pH "negating" the ammonium and causing it to revert back to ammonia.
Is that correct? Is the chelating solution you refer to designed to prevent that at high pH levels?
When we do our tests for nitrates, we are adding hydrochloric acid to the water and this reverses any ammonium ions back into their ammonia form? Separates it from the nitrates? Hrm, better question: why do we use hydrochloric acid to test nitrates?
Roan
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For reference, chloramines are only one product of the reaction between bleach and ammonia, the more prevalent one is chlorine gas.
Thiosulphate oxidizes the Cl-N or Cl-Cl bond, resulting in Cl-
Yes, the ratio of [NH4+]/[NH3] is dependant on pH. Specifically:
The ratio of [NH4+]/[NH3] increases as pH decreases, so at:
pH 8: [NH4+]/[NH3] = 18
pH 7: [NH4+]/[NH3] = 180
pH 6: [NH4+]/[NH3] = 1796
and so on. (based on the ka cited in the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics)
So in order for Prime or Amquel to bind ammonia as ammonium the active compound would need to remove influence of pH on ammonia speciation. However, it's not necessary to convert the ammonia to ammonium to remove it from the water, but based on the speciation, ammonium would definitely be the preferable species to work with.
Thiosulphate oxidizes the Cl-N or Cl-Cl bond, resulting in Cl-
Yes, the ratio of [NH4+]/[NH3] is dependant on pH. Specifically:
The ratio of [NH4+]/[NH3] increases as pH decreases, so at:
pH 8: [NH4+]/[NH3] = 18
pH 7: [NH4+]/[NH3] = 180
pH 6: [NH4+]/[NH3] = 1796
and so on. (based on the ka cited in the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics)
So in order for Prime or Amquel to bind ammonia as ammonium the active compound would need to remove influence of pH on ammonia speciation. However, it's not necessary to convert the ammonia to ammonium to remove it from the water, but based on the speciation, ammonium would definitely be the preferable species to work with.
HappyChem,
What is the best food to feed my Oscar's to keep them healthy and happy? Is their a special diet I should be feeding them? If so what is it?
I've been feeding them Hikari Gold pellets and salad shrimp occasionally. At first I was feeding them too much but I'm getting that under control.
My problem with feeding is that the male eats all of his food and her food. He's really fast. I've tried to feeding them on seperate ends thing and it is not working. She will get a piece of food, chew on it a second and spit it back out and he gets it. All she's eaten in the week and a 1/2 I've had her is two pellets. Most of the people on oscarfish.com said this is normal because she is still adjusting. Obviously my male O is fine. Can't stop him from eating everything in sight.
Any ideas?
So, as far as the water thing are you saying that I should change about 20% a day and add Prime? I want to be clear on what I need to be doing. Thanks for your help.
What is the best food to feed my Oscar's to keep them healthy and happy? Is their a special diet I should be feeding them? If so what is it?
I've been feeding them Hikari Gold pellets and salad shrimp occasionally. At first I was feeding them too much but I'm getting that under control.
My problem with feeding is that the male eats all of his food and her food. He's really fast. I've tried to feeding them on seperate ends thing and it is not working. She will get a piece of food, chew on it a second and spit it back out and he gets it. All she's eaten in the week and a 1/2 I've had her is two pellets. Most of the people on oscarfish.com said this is normal because she is still adjusting. Obviously my male O is fine. Can't stop him from eating everything in sight.
Any ideas?
So, as far as the water thing are you saying that I should change about 20% a day and add Prime? I want to be clear on what I need to be doing. Thanks for your help.
One more thing (Sorry), Do you think I have enough filtration on my tank (75 gallon)? I have a Rena Filstar XP1 and a Marineland Emperor 400. The Rena Filstar XP1 was given to me (I know with my size tank it says to use an XP2). I was thinking about getting a bigger Rena Filstar and another Emperor 400, what do you think? As messy as they or I figure it couldn't hurt.
You could definitely use a bigger Rena, there's no such thing as overfiltration, so when in doubt, err to the big side. Since Oscars are such messy fish, you should consider having one filter set up as a mech. only and another to be biological. It's really easy to do. If you've got 2 cannister filters, pack one with mechanical filtration media and the second with bio-media. Connect the outflow of the first to the intake of the second, then run the second's outflow into the tank.
With the setup that you've already got, I'd use the Rena as a mech. filter and take advantage of the biowheel for biological filtration, slip a filter sponge over the intake to keep the media in the bio-only-filter free of mulm, pack the rest of the filter with bio-balls. The options really are endless, and it's a good idea for messy fish. Clean the mech. filter weekly and the intake sponge on the bio-only weekly, clean the bio-only as it gets gunky.
But yes, more filtration won't hurt.
As for food, I'm far from an expert on Oscars. However, a once weekly feeding of spirulina flakes would probably be good for them. As long as the salad shrimp are kept well preserved they should be fine. You might also want to look into some beef heart. Careful not to feed too much though, it can mess up a tank really bad, really fast. Some of the larger loaches or a pleco is usually a good choice of tank mates for an Oscar to help clean up the excess food. Basically with feedings, no matter what the fish, variety is the key to success. It'll keep them from being finnicky eaters and as long as you've got a wide range of foods it's less likely that the fish will run into deficiency related problems.
With the setup that you've already got, I'd use the Rena as a mech. filter and take advantage of the biowheel for biological filtration, slip a filter sponge over the intake to keep the media in the bio-only-filter free of mulm, pack the rest of the filter with bio-balls. The options really are endless, and it's a good idea for messy fish. Clean the mech. filter weekly and the intake sponge on the bio-only weekly, clean the bio-only as it gets gunky.
But yes, more filtration won't hurt.
As for food, I'm far from an expert on Oscars. However, a once weekly feeding of spirulina flakes would probably be good for them. As long as the salad shrimp are kept well preserved they should be fine. You might also want to look into some beef heart. Careful not to feed too much though, it can mess up a tank really bad, really fast. Some of the larger loaches or a pleco is usually a good choice of tank mates for an Oscar to help clean up the excess food. Basically with feedings, no matter what the fish, variety is the key to success. It'll keep them from being finnicky eaters and as long as you've got a wide range of foods it's less likely that the fish will run into deficiency related problems.
