goldfish are a coldwater species and angelfish are tropical and require warm water. also the goldfish get too big for a 46 gallon bow front.
Angels and Goldfish
- Thread starter slipgate
- Start date
Catfish: As has been discussed already, goldfish being coldwater is an over-regurgitated myth that needs to be allowed to die. We should be basing things on facts, not myths.
Jill-O
All American Girl (all grown up)
So says you above, however, most other enthusiasts maintain that goldfish are cold water fish... even the sub-forum name here for Goldies agrees. Got to remember, too, that while perhaps the OP involved more than one issue and has other circumstances that do not make goldfish the best choice for the tank in question, other people read threads to gather information they will apply to their own situations so it is worth addressing all the parameters that are material.
Which proves nothing except that a bunch of people have heard the same thing. In fairness the sub-form is "Cold & Temperate",
See here is reptileguy's point since I think you and a lot of people are missing it. Someone asks about goldfish in tropical tanks and the automatic response is "no, they are cold-water fish". Being cold-water fish doesn't rule out tropical temperatures. But everyone that has asked has been told that that is the reason, so when someone else asks later those people repeat the same reply. There is never any evidence offered to back it up except the same sources that repeated the original claim. It is simply a statement that is thrown out there as absolute fact, end of discussion. When a debate comes up, rather then replying with evidence and fact, the people arguing against tropical temperature just keep repeating "they are cold-water fish!".
As I said earlier. I'd be interested to see evidence that warmer water significantly decreases a goldfish's life-span. I'm not talking days or weeks. Years. What percentage does it decrease their life-span? How much does each degree of increase effect that? I'm sure there will be some effect. The question is whether the effect is noticeable enough to warrant always keeping them in lower temperatures.
They are temperate/cold-water fish, which means they can handle much lower temperatures then tropical fish. That doesn't rule out warmer temperatures. That simply means they have a lower range. It isn't evidence that they can't be kept at tropical temperatures.
Check the facts. Look up goldfish , Carassius auratus, on fishbase.org. It is a site that is used and maintained by scientists, not hobbyists. This makes it one of the if not THE most reliable source of accurate information in regards to max size, natural and introduced geographic range, pH, temp, etc. Here is a link to the page on goldfish so you can see for yourself:http://fishbase.org/Summary/speciesSummary.php?ID=271&genusname=Carassius&speciesname=auratus+auratus&AT=carassius+auratus⟨=English
I think it is a good time to get a little more specific. Not all goldfish can handle the same temp range. In general the fancier the breed a goldfish is the more sensitive they are. So a common goldfish is hardier than a fantail, which is hardier than an oranda, etc. I lump the breeds in to two major categories: the long-bodieds and the round-bodieds. The round-bodieds are all the fancies like moors, ranchus, etc. The long-bodieds are all the breeds with a natural body form regardless of finnage (so it includes comets, wakins, etc.). The long-bodieds are much hardier overall, especially when it comes to temperature tolerance. These are the types that are in ponds year round in any climate. These are the types that when released or escaped can establish naturalized populations in almost any climate. The fancies are not nearly as temperature tolerant. They cannot go as cold or as warm as long-bodieds. So although they shouldn't be in a pond year round (although some people do keep them this way without issue) they also shouldn't be up at discus temp either, at least not long term.
I have had goldfish for years in many different circumstances. Many people may not agree, and I understand, but the first time I had any breed was a bunch of sarassas in a 75 with discus. Here is a video:
[video=youtube;e7UqQJS-ZBI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7UqQJS-ZBI[/video]
My fancies (kept at room temp) did not do the same until years later.
Here is a map I made based on the FACTS found in the link to fishbase above (not regurgitated myth). The nations in blue are where goldfish are from naturally. Even without any human interference they are in the quite tropic areas of Laos, Myanmar, etc. The nations in red are all the places goldfish have established naturalized populations (introduced and now stable). As it should be obvious, obviously they are not the coldwater fish we have been led to believe. Obviously temperature is not an issue. Add to this the fact that most tropical tanks are only a few degrees above 'coldwater' room temp tanks and the idea that they cannot thrive in tropical conditions should simply crumble away to nothing.
I think it is a good time to get a little more specific. Not all goldfish can handle the same temp range. In general the fancier the breed a goldfish is the more sensitive they are. So a common goldfish is hardier than a fantail, which is hardier than an oranda, etc. I lump the breeds in to two major categories: the long-bodieds and the round-bodieds. The round-bodieds are all the fancies like moors, ranchus, etc. The long-bodieds are all the breeds with a natural body form regardless of finnage (so it includes comets, wakins, etc.). The long-bodieds are much hardier overall, especially when it comes to temperature tolerance. These are the types that are in ponds year round in any climate. These are the types that when released or escaped can establish naturalized populations in almost any climate. The fancies are not nearly as temperature tolerant. They cannot go as cold or as warm as long-bodieds. So although they shouldn't be in a pond year round (although some people do keep them this way without issue) they also shouldn't be up at discus temp either, at least not long term.
I have had goldfish for years in many different circumstances. Many people may not agree, and I understand, but the first time I had any breed was a bunch of sarassas in a 75 with discus. Here is a video:
[video=youtube;e7UqQJS-ZBI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7UqQJS-ZBI[/video]
My fancies (kept at room temp) did not do the same until years later.
Here is a map I made based on the FACTS found in the link to fishbase above (not regurgitated myth). The nations in blue are where goldfish are from naturally. Even without any human interference they are in the quite tropic areas of Laos, Myanmar, etc. The nations in red are all the places goldfish have established naturalized populations (introduced and now stable). As it should be obvious, obviously they are not the coldwater fish we have been led to believe. Obviously temperature is not an issue. Add to this the fact that most tropical tanks are only a few degrees above 'coldwater' room temp tanks and the idea that they cannot thrive in tropical conditions should simply crumble away to nothing.
You bring up a good point. I do agree that goldfish can survive in tropical temps successfully for quite some time, but, true or not true, every goldfish hobbyist I've ever asked has told me that while they CAN and WILL survive in warm temps, it is rumored to speed up the goldfish's metabolism hence shortening their lifespan. By how much? I have no idea, as a matter of fact, I don't even know that it does, but we are simply giving our opinions based on what we learned. Now is when we let the OP make the final decision and decide what side they want to take. Now, besides temp. Goldfish wouldn't work in the tank regardless because of the size, so why bother messing with the temp issue if it's not going to be reasonable for the fish in this situation anyway? If this is to continue... Start a new thread, but it's about time we let the OP get a word in edgewise...
Yes, but a bunch of people buying in to a myth doesn't make it any more true. Just because a whole lot of people believe something doesn't turn it in to a fact.
Anyone posting doesn't prevent the OP from posting as well.
We are discussing it because it came up. That made it part of this discussion. If we leave it unchecked it contributes to the impression that goldfish are coldwater, perpetuating the myth are are trying to cure with facts.
Anyone posting doesn't prevent the OP from posting as well.
We are discussing it because it came up. That made it part of this discussion. If we leave it unchecked it contributes to the impression that goldfish are coldwater, perpetuating the myth are are trying to cure with facts.
Yiikes! Well the Goldfish are already in the 46g bow. They are happy as can be. They follow you anywhere you go in the room always wanting a handout. I cana't see getting an even larger tank for them. I do weekly 25% water changes. There isn't a lot of "fluff" in the tank, two simple ornaments for them to swim around and a small artificial plant (plus natural gravel).
I honestly thing they and the angels would be fine together. If I do go this route, I'd keep the temp probably around 78. I'd watch them very closely for a few days. Also I got this tank for free with the goldfish about 2 months ago. The former owner fed them exclusively tropical fish flake food which isn't supposed to be good for goldfish, however, they are thriving. I feed them goldfish flake food now however. They are pigs. Whatever is in the tank they eat in like 2 minutes. I'd almost need to isolate the angels at feeding time to make sure they got some food.
My biggest concern is that these angles lay eggs every 2-3 weeks like clockwork. I am not sure how mean they'd be to the goldfish once they had a batch. The female is a real ***** to the male however!
Here are the happy fish!
[YT]yW_UC__1lbE[/YT]
I honestly thing they and the angels would be fine together. If I do go this route, I'd keep the temp probably around 78. I'd watch them very closely for a few days. Also I got this tank for free with the goldfish about 2 months ago. The former owner fed them exclusively tropical fish flake food which isn't supposed to be good for goldfish, however, they are thriving. I feed them goldfish flake food now however. They are pigs. Whatever is in the tank they eat in like 2 minutes. I'd almost need to isolate the angels at feeding time to make sure they got some food.
My biggest concern is that these angles lay eggs every 2-3 weeks like clockwork. I am not sure how mean they'd be to the goldfish once they had a batch. The female is a real ***** to the male however!
Here are the happy fish!
[YT]yW_UC__1lbE[/YT]
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You need to understand that not dead or sick in two months is NOT thriving.
Those goldfish are not full grown, and won't get there under your current care. That is way too many fish for that tank already. Do you realize that those are all pond goldfish? They will EACH hit one foot or more if PROPERLY cared for. They should be in a 125 BARE MINIMUM, ideally 180+ or a pond. Under your current regimen they will be stunted, but will look well enough from the outside making you think we were wrong. These fish are about as hardy as fish get, so you the problems you are causing will not have obvious immediate results. If you don't change your ways what will most likely happen is 3-5 years from now they will not have gotten too much bigger and then all of a sudden they will all get sick very severely at about the same time. I call it old tank syndrome, where a tank was neglected for years, but didn't look horrible enough to get the owner to change their ways. The long term exposure to low water quality all of a sudden catches up with them when it is absolutely horrible. You are starting them on this track by not accepting the fact that your current setup is far from adequate.
Putting angels in there is a death sentence for them. They are much more sensitive to all these issues and will suffer that much sooner.
Provide the goldfish with a proper home or give them to someone who will. If you like goldfish you can get rid of the ones you have and get up to three fantails to fill that tank.
Those goldfish are not full grown, and won't get there under your current care. That is way too many fish for that tank already. Do you realize that those are all pond goldfish? They will EACH hit one foot or more if PROPERLY cared for. They should be in a 125 BARE MINIMUM, ideally 180+ or a pond. Under your current regimen they will be stunted, but will look well enough from the outside making you think we were wrong. These fish are about as hardy as fish get, so you the problems you are causing will not have obvious immediate results. If you don't change your ways what will most likely happen is 3-5 years from now they will not have gotten too much bigger and then all of a sudden they will all get sick very severely at about the same time. I call it old tank syndrome, where a tank was neglected for years, but didn't look horrible enough to get the owner to change their ways. The long term exposure to low water quality all of a sudden catches up with them when it is absolutely horrible. You are starting them on this track by not accepting the fact that your current setup is far from adequate.
Putting angels in there is a death sentence for them. They are much more sensitive to all these issues and will suffer that much sooner.
Provide the goldfish with a proper home or give them to someone who will. If you like goldfish you can get rid of the ones you have and get up to three fantails to fill that tank.
