Answers to Ich

[mogurnda]

Seems like one problem raising many snails is that they go through a free-swimming veliger stage. Keeping them happy, healthy and out of impellers is pretty hard.
One of the pioneers of snail farming is Gerald Helsinga (sp?) now of IPSF. About a year ago, I sniffed through the tridacna clam aquaculture literature a little, and he appeared quite frequently. Looks like the snail rearing was an offshoot. Anyway, ponds and special vats are a good idea. Like raising Lysmata shrimp, it's easy to get babies, but you need the proper scale to rear them commercially.
If anyone is interested, I can spend a little time trying to dredge up the info.
By the way, snails are generally hermaphrodites, so anybody you meet is a potential date.

 

[FISH WHISPERER]

You folks are too kind. Who doesn't like such kind words? Thanks tons. But let me turn the tables and thank YOU folks. Ya'll are the ones that spend so much time here keeping AC running strong. That's good. It's been so good watching so many of you start out and turn into such knowledgeable hobbyists. That's what's so great about this hobby. A person can start out and then in just a few short months be sharing observations with someone who's been doing this for years. That's the definition of dynamic!

Anyway, it's always good to swing by - and it's so great that AC is staffed by such an enthusiastic staff. The focus of this board and AL make them my two favorite boards. I'm sure others are just as fine, but I like the pace and enthusiasm of my two favorites! There's a lot of mutual respect among the hobbyists here, and IMO that's what makes a board a great place to learn, share and have fun!

And "Corax" I'll certainly drop a line if I swing down that way. I'm most certainly planning on the return part of my trip being the southern states!

I'd chat more about the snails, but I'll drop in on the other thread - the buggers can be pretty interesting, eh? Thanks again for such kind words.

 

[votek]

Wow I didnt know that chemical ich treatments burn a fish's epidermal layer.

 

[FISH WHISPERER]

Raven! "Old Corax" LOL... Is it you? Wow, it's been awhile, huh? I've been working on a book, and am actually up in Ohio. I was down in Alabama for awhile with Mike (remember Smitty91) and his family. I've driven right through TN and KY a few times. We had the property/size to do two of what I think would have been the man-made coral farms. Two converted chicken facilities (each about 200 yeards long by about 40 yards wide). Hmmmm... I think too much investment and time away from my book. And no, it's not anything to do with reefkeeping, but MS.

Thanks for the kind words, by the way! To everyone! lol I feel like I "owe" ya something, so I'll post my article on cows, fair enough? LOL I don't know if that's floating around here.

 

[FISH WHISPERER]

Hey, this is an OLD thread, but I'm catching up. I had to respond about the snails. In particular, I wanted to address Mandairn (thanks for the kind words, also!). I do NOT know the specifics, but I can tell you this. The parameters vary greatly and it's not so much "where" snails can reproduce. Mike and I got into this very subject and we did some work with the slimy creatures who leave us shells for our crabs!

Some of these snail species are so hardy, and they all have adapted to their respective habitats. Kreblak, you initially asked, so this is as much to you! (and thanks for all your kind words in my absence, as well!! )

I don't even know if you guys have specific questions that haven't been answered since you posted, but I'll give you the primary "what I know."

I know it can be rotten to be some species of snails, because you don't get to "engage" in mating. For most of us, affection is nice. For some snails, egg/sperm are released into the water column. I need not draw an analogy here, although it would be most fun to do so. From hence comes small, fertilized eggs which hatch. Hard to imagine this happening, but shoot a machine gun into the air and there's a great likelihood that of all those bullets landing, one might just hit someone.

Some snails give live birth, I believe. I'm not sure, but I believe that's the case.

I'm mostly ignorant when it comes to their reproductive stages, because I was most intrigued by their adaptation to different zones. Some snails have shells designed for their environment, and not only is that cool - but perfectly logical! But Mike and I actually found some snails that looked exactly like "bumblebee" snails sold locally at many lfs. There was one store in particular in SF that we were convinced sold these. Uh... They are collected locally in the temperate regions (SO many in the Monterey Bay among the rocks/pools) and we thought we had struck gold! Not only did these snails look JUST LIKE what they sold for $$ in the store, but they did just fine in our tank! WOW!!! Disease free snails, collected for free, that were literally stepped on if you weren't watching where you were walking. Of course we immediately though of our tanks loaded with snails. And proceeded to involve the kidlets and wives in the "collection process." The kidlets enjoyed it, the wives of course looked at us like we were complete idiots. I'm sure that's why mine left me to this day!

At any rate, there's always a catch. These snails did wonderfully. Wonderfully enough that they were PERFECT and plentiful enough for me to provide to my triggers. Awesome to watch them do what they do! But.... As the "zones" merge, it appears that these mostly "temperate" bumblebee snails basically died off. After so many tests - yes, it was the temp. We couldn't find a balance between our reef systems and what would keep these snails co-existing within. Not that it was anything "earthshattering," it's just what Mike and I liked to do, for those that remember our antics!

Anyway, while this isn't specifically addressing the mating process, I'm hopefully getting one point across - get your snails from reputable sources. It is the pits to think that so many people bought snails, had them die - and then went and messed with their tank's parameters trying to "fix" a problem that doesn't exist. The "problem" is that (at that time) many people sold snails that weren't proper for our warm systems. You thought you were buying something great, because it immediately took cover in your tank... but within a few weeks... (if that) Dead. Some people would see fish picking at their snails and blame the fish.

So in the end we figured we'd helped in some sort of way. Don't go all hog-wild "fixing" things if certain snails aren't "staying alive" in your tank. Most of you get good snails (cowries are awesome) that stay alive. It's mostly those shoddy "warehouse stores" along the PC that are among the "guilty" of collecting and selling species that won't survive in our warm water systems. The caveat is this: snails from stores are one of the surest ways to introduce ich. While ich doesn't host on snails, the dormant cyst stage can be attached to their shells. Voila. So many people don't Q-tine their snails thinking they are "ich-free." Look at 'em like a trojan horse, of sorts.

Anyway, be wary the "bumblebee snails" from the West Coast! lol... I'm up here in Ohio, now... writing a book on multiple sclerosis. I was down in Alabama with Mike, and we had two facilities we ALMOST thought about using for what I believe would have been the largest indoor coral-farm acreage in the U.S. Seriously. But what a job to undertake, and hardly scientific enough, for me. I'd rather have done a farm OUTdoors. I digress... Back to the snails. Those bumblebee snails seem to look exactly like specimens that live in our tanks with no problems. There's no way to tell.

Well, I would normally refer any comment about snails to Ron Shimek. I don't know if HE's around anywhere, but that was his schtick, the old fart! But Smitty and I had some fun in our day with the temperate snails - if you're lucky enough, they're great trigger/aggressive food... and believe it or not some crabs opted for THEIR shells. Go figure. I know these questions have probably been long answered (reproductive), but I thought I had to revisit our experiences with the temperate species and how well they did in our tanks... for free! Just not for long.

 

[mandy21]

Raven! "Old Corax" LOL... Is it you? Wow, it's been awhile, huh? I've been working on a book, and am actually up in Ohio.

Where in Ohio are you at now? I'm in Ohio.

I'm glad you brought the topic back up. I had ich in a tank and I had QT the fish (one of 2 culprits) that brought it in for 4 weeks. I hadn't treated. I treated with hyposalinity in 3 QT tanks due to the inhabitants and it was a pain in the butt. After that, I'd determined that the only way to reduce the chance of ich getting back in a main tank would be to automatically QT all with hypo. It hasn't been met with the most support in the world.

 

[FISH WHISPERER]

Hi Mandy -

I'm in Columbus. Ich is always a fun topic, huh? I was going to jump out and agree immediately that an "automatic QT treatment" is of course a good idea for anything put in a tank. THEN I saw the part about "with hypo". I would agree, that wouldn't be met with the most support in the world. I won't make the arguments - I'm sure you've heard 'em all, the most prominent being "why risk undue stress" huh? Well, I'm not against you in the least. Because having an "ich-free" tank is doable, but once you start taking chances, you can undue all the hard work. It is very hard - and I've found that there is a compromise. It's called "two tanks." Your "#1" tank never gets anything placed in it that doesn't come from your #2 tank, no matter how great the temptation. That basically means you have two identical setups, because if you have a full reef, the second tank must be the same as well. But the #2 tank can be your "coral only" tank. You must keep the same parameters, etc., but you don't get to keep fish in there. Remember, those are the ich hosts. But there's nothing wrong with that, really. But then, you don't need to treat with hypo. Another argument against hypo is that it doesn't always give you guaranteed success. It's rather like giving a dog a flea dip. You can only hope you get all the buggers, huh? But whenever you put anything in that second tank, you must not place anything from it into your main display until you've outlasted the ich lifecycle. This is the most surefast way I've found of eliminating ich introduction. When you put anything in that second tank, just assume that you've introduced the first cycle of ich, and that it will flourish - and you must outlast it. You will do so with no hosts.

I've found that the best way to do all this is to avoid buying "a little something here and there." When I bought corals, I would buy them "en masse," ya know? It all worked out well. If there was any diseased specimens, or dying ones (and many of our corals are already doomed from the day we get them, whether we like it or not), we can deal with it in the #2 tank. You don't even need an elaborate setup with sumps, etc., in that tank. You will have to have the lighting, that goes without saying. But it can be a small tank. At any rate, within a few years you won't be able to stuff anything else into your main tank. Voila. No more need to have expensive lighting turned on... you will just use that to acclimate the fun stuff like crabs and snails. I literally got to a point where I had no more acreage to put anything, and it was just rotten going to the LFS, because I couldn't GET anything. I had reached "Tank Nirvana." Boring, really. And really hard because there's always some other pretty fish or coral I wouldn't have minded. But anyway, Mandy - that might be your goal... and if you get there by using hypo on everything you won't have to maintain a second tank throughout the duration - but you won't have as solid a guarantee as having everything outlive a presumed cycle of ich in that second tank. Just as fleas will never magically "appear" on a dog, ich will never magically appear on a dog. Believe it or not, there were people who will say, "You can never get rid of ich." I don't know about today, but just a few years back they would swear by it. I finally reckoned that with their process, they were right. THEY could never assume an ich-free tank with their tank husbandry. Some take those chances. I had fish too long, and love 'em too much to ever risk it. And then Goodyear went and took a leap despite it all. Argh.

Do what works, and I always think it's better to take all precautions possible. And I would be lying if I said there was a time when I didn't rush the gun and use hypo just to "get there quicker." But once I had an established system, there wasn't a chance I was going to risk trusting hypo. For me, it was more about it not being as solid a guarantee. The most important thing about ich I've ever shared with anybody is, treat everything you buy as though it is infected. Otherwise, you're playing the odds. Some play the odds, and that's their perogative. This board has some of the most informed aquariasts in the hobby. Trust me, I've seen people argue over some stupid stuff. I've even participated! But what we do here is NOTHING compared to what people do who partake in this hobby and don't utilize a great resource like AC. When I was down in Alabama, Mike and I worked on a few people's tanks. All I can say is.... nothing. I couldn't believe the stuff some people do and think. Believe me, your "hypo" is nothing compared to some of the stuff some people do. I did work on a doctor's tank once, who had no problem replacing fish that died. To him, it was just attrition. He looked at it like I probably do a flower garden. If it makes, it great. If not, buy another. He made almost weekly visits to his lfs to see what was in, and his husbandry was dismal. Some people don't mind it, and take absolutely no preventative measures whatsoever. Go figure. Oh, I excused myself from taking care of his tank, by the way. You can lead a fish to water....

Anyway, it's great that you take the steps to keep ich from getting in your main tank. When I did the product testing/review for Ruby Reef, I went hog-wild with that stuff. I had unlimited product to play with, and I tested it to the max. I NEVER killed a coral with it, so their claim is true about being "reef safe." And believe me, I tested way more than their recommended doseages. Dr. Sam Grillo was a great asset to this hobby, but I think some two-bit naysayers just made him shrug it off. Little did anyone know his true background. I never knew until well after I did testing for him. His contributions to the hobby came from an extensive bio-technical background. But that guy was an PhD in the MD sense. I don't want to divulge his personal info, as it was never his desire to - it was after we became good friends. But I will say if people had any clue who this guy was, or what he's done for medical science - I can't imagine anyone popping off with doubts as to his credentials. oooohhh, what a teaser, huh? WHO WAS THIS GUY! lol.

Anyway, long after product testing, with no luxury of mega-dosing and killing any of the beasts (ich) I employed the "starvation" technique I described above. That worked as well, and I never had ich. It will not "magically appear" if a fish gets stressed, so chase that ich-free tank, Mandy - you'll have it!

Yes, Ohio. I never would have thought. Can't say as I like it all that much... where's the freakin' OCEAN? lol I've heard some people actually surf the shore at the lake up north... and I actually have my two boards here in my garage - not to surf Ohio, but because they are like my dolls, if I were a girl! hahaha. People do a double-take, though... but having them wonder is a good thing. I figure if I go back to 'Bama I'll be close enough to Florida. If I get rich I'll float between 'Bama and CA. I love the South, and I love and miss Santa Cruz, CA. My "other passion" is four-wheeling, and there was a lot that down in 'Bama. It was fun red-necking around with my buddy Mike. Somehow I don't see that "fitting in" up here in Ohio. lol. Anyway, quite the stretch from ich, but I have a way of wandering in discussion as much as I do in life! lol.

 

[mandy21]

Thank you so much for that response. I read it, printed it, and it joined my little nerd binder I have with very helpful information! haha. Definitely worth reading another 3 or 50 times.

Yes, Ohio, not the best place in the world. I live about an hour and a half north of Columbus in the nice are of the world's largest population of Amish. I can't complain about not being able to see neighbors. They need to transplant this area right by the ocean or an ocean right smack in the middle of this area. Come on up here and you will DEFINITELY see the rednecking four-wheeling. It is in the state, just not in the cities. Have to venture away from that a little bit. Perhaps not to the extent of what is more in the South, but still it's definitely up here.

 

[FISH WHISPERER]

Hi Mandy - Glad you liked the info - I'll PM ya about Ohio, since it would totally hijack an already antiquated thread! hahaha