Bio-tank Self sustaining life.

[Khemul]

Maybe heavily plant the tank and place it near a window? Lots of light for plant growth and eventually the tank will be overrun with algae. Then you could stock it with Otos (or another low bioload algae eater). Although eventually you may not be able to see inside the tank to prove that the fish are still alive. :grinyes:

I'd think water replacement is your worst criteria. Although without any filtration evaporation is much slower. But for stable water you are gonna need to replace evaporation with water from the original source.

I wonder if you started with rain water right off, maybe that'd avoid the PH crash you will get eventually.

 

[nonamesleft47]

It will work but you need to have high lighting or put the tank in front of a window that gets sunlight for the majority of the day. Add a ton of java moss and anacharis or some other free floating oxygenating plant. Don't use just one variety of plant. Then snails (pond or ramshorns or both) then I'd go with cherry shrimp. Let it get settled for at least a month and then add your fish. You are going to want the tank crammed full of plants to give the shrimp hiding places.

For fish, are you in the US? If so go native, a couple of least killies or everglades pygmy sunfish these fish survive in what could be considered mud puddles. Get a pair so you can show that they are able to reproduce in your closed system (which they will and there will be plenty of food for them as both reproduce slowly. I have raised both species in 5 gallon buckets outside from April-November with literally no care so I know it can be done.

If you are outside the US a pair of very small killies like Pseudepiplatys annulatus or endlers, white clouds or feeder guppies would work. Stay away from tetras, ect as they have an optimal temperature, ph, ect. These fish will do well in a variety of circumstances.

For your initial water I would try to get water from a natural source. Buckets full from a stream or pond which contains life. Rainwater would not be the best source but if you started a tub or a couple of tubs with leaves, grass clippings, some manure and let rainwater replenish them and took your top off water from these would be best.
For substrate I would use leaf litter, some pond muck or just plain gravel or all 3 but very little of them. No sand or soil as it will go anerobic and rot. I would add some crushed coral or oyster shell to the substrate to buffer the PH of the water and keep it from bottoming out due to the rain water and decomposing plant material. The plants will just be free floating not planted in the substrate. You need to introduce enough microorganisms to sustain life during the experiment. Do this with a handful of pond muck and water collected from the wild. These organisms will feed off of the algae and plants and sustain your fish. The shrimp will also eat decaying plant matter and feed your fish.

Good luck keep us posted and post pictures as I think if you do it right you'll be a grand richer.

 

[Reignbow]

Wow, thanks for the overwhelming responses! When I said low light.. I should have been more clear, It will be getting window light, I meant low light as in no artificial lights. Ok so here's the plan so far

Branches wrapped in java moss & some "lucky" bamboo (so far the only plants we both agreed on and we know will do well.
Layered sub-straight as follows from top to bottom

Some stones to keep Lucky Bamboo in place
Sand pebble mix
petemoss
Organic soil
(all in an incline) 6 inches inches in rear of tank 2-3 in front.

We will be getting some subtraight aerators (Malaysian Trumpet Snails)
It's winter here so we will be bringing in a bucket of snow to melt to use as water for the tank, then in the spring we will be adding some sampled pond water with algae and microbes. We might add a shrimp if the tank get's too green.

I already know that planted tanks can be done with out water changes and just toping up the tank, and enclosed ecosystems with shrimp and pond life can last for very very long periods if the conditions remain stable.

Here is an image of what we're going for (minus the fish)

We are going to wait until the tank environment reaches a good symbiosis with little to no intervention.

We understand that it will need to be a heavily planted environment before even adding very small fish. We were thinking a tiny group (5) neons but I am not sure if they're carnivorous. And if they are carnivorous we're not sure if they will eat the "no seeums" or if they will eat all of the "no seeums". We might be best off finding very small omnivorous fish. (let me know if you have any ideas).

For now, I think we need plant and snail or substraight aerator tips.

What other plants do you recommend for a tank near a window with out direct sunlight?
What life forms should we start with (we don't want over population of snails or shrimp to eat the plants, just the excess algae).

Thank you for your responses!

Reign

 

[Reignbow]

Animal cruelty, IMO. But whatever floats your boat I guess.

Thanks for your assumption, I am not going to let the tank turn into a swamp. If we have to intervene we will before the flora and aquatic life die and accept that we lost the bet.

 

[Reignbow]

Sorry I should have added, we don't want plants to get too out of control too quickly, and we are going to stick to the 30 gallon. I know we can at least do a planted aquarium with no fish inside which is where we want to start.

So recommended plants for a small aquarium please ^_^

 

[Reignbow]

Maybe heavily plant the tank and place it near a window? Lots of light for plant growth and eventually the tank will be overrun with algae. Then you could stock it with Otos (or another low bioload algae eater). Although eventually you may not be able to see inside the tank to prove that the fish are still alive. :grinyes:

I'd think water replacement is your worst criteria. Although without any filtration evaporation is much slower. But for stable water you are gonna need to replace evaporation with water from the original source.

I wonder if you started with rain water right off, maybe that'd avoid the PH crash you will get eventually.

That's what we're hoping, we will have a large rubber bin by the back garden to catch the rain. We're starting with room temp melted snow. It's worth a go I think. We're willing to maintain it. It's not like we're lazy... we just want to try it and incorporate things extremely slowly and see what happens

 

[Reignbow]

Here's a good account of an experiment with a self-sustaining system: http://www.tuncalik.com/2009/09/biotope-in-my-study/

However, it was a sizable tank with a tiny number of tiny fish...

:y220e: Yes! I saw this the other day.. It's amazing! It has so little water in the bottom and I think he mentioned he has 2 guppies in there and frogs who eat the guppy fry! (a little too complex for me) guppies are reserved in our mind as a possible fish we might add but I think they're too big and will create too much byproduct for the plants and cleaners to take care of.

 

[ryukin_5]

You can do this!!!! All you are doing here is mimicking the state of a pond on a very small scale. I don't know how you are going to get to done in a 30g tank kinda small to me but. Did this for more than a year in a tub like the ones you put in your shower don't know how much water that is ! And with sword tails, playties, guppies and there was breeding. plants fox tail/hornworth and duckweed now I did not do this on purpose circumstances kinda forced this to happen oh and the water change was when it rained .

 

[Reignbow]

I think we can too! Thanks for your encouragement!
There are a lot of other people on other forums that seem to be pretty picky aquarium keepers telling us it's impossible, but if it can happen in nature, surely it can happen on a small scale. I personally think the key is to make sure any alterations you make are small scale and extremely slow. I would probably wait months after introducing a new element before adding another so that the ecology can make appropriate adjustments. If I think of this as actual nature, any drastic change (or too many at once) will completely disrupt it's balance.

The key would be; introduce by small increments, then wait for it to meet equilibrium again.

I would do it in a larger tank, but we just don't have the space for it unfortunately.

 

[nonamesleft47]

I think it will be a mistake going with mostly organic substrate. Doesn't matter how many trumpet snails you go with it's still going to rot. Clay based soil would be much better. Some cheap kitty litter with a layer of small gravel over it.

The shrimp will not decimate your plants. They mostly eat algae and dead plant material. They will also breed (that's why I suggested cherry shrimp) providing food for your fish, don't try to save money by adding ghost shrimp, they aren't the same.

The bamboo will be OK as long as the leaves are out of the water. Get creative. Willow branches would be better I would think. Just cut off a few thumb size branches and stick them in the substrate with the top out of the water. They will export ammonia/nitrates faster than bamboo as they will grow much faster. That is an old school greenwater cure as it removes the nutrients that the greenwater feeds on. Hornwart, anacharis, jungle vals, java fern, java moss. Any of those should work well.

Do you know how much snow you would have to melt to get enough for a 30 gallon tank? A whole bunch... Between that and the organics you plan on adding your PH is going to be very low. Low enough to throw most fish and inverts into PH shock immediately (ie death). You are going to be creating a sterile environment, not a natural one. You are much better off chopping a hole in the ice if you have to and fill the entire tank with creek or pond water. Even doing it now there will be plenty of organisms in the water.

Neons would be good if you are going to heat the tank, are you? I would assume not. The two fish I suggested will do well in low ph no heat tanks and both grow to less than an inch at full size. Celestial Pearl Danios would be another good one. All are predatory/omnivores. You'll have a hard time finding any fish besides otos that aren't going to predate now and then.

The tank you show is an Amano tank if I'm not mistaken, pressurized CO2, halide lighting, exactly NOT what you are going for...