Black, Eyeless, White Cloud Minnow - New Tank Owners

[SimFish]

1st time fish tankers (at least since childhood)...

We got a 10 gallon deluxe package kit for $40 that included most things. Added a heater which is keeping the water 74-78 degrees. Air pump, air rock, bubble shell thing, and cool finding nemo decorations Pretty basic anyways and are about 2 weeks into the new tank stage of bacteria building or whatever...

Fish include 2 Feeder White Cloud Minnow, 2 Golden White Cloud Minnow, 2 Gold Mollys, 2 Black Skirt Tetras, 2 Zebras

The first few hours we lost 1 of the Golden White Clouds.

7 days in we lost the other Golden White Cloud. It had been acting terrified and wouldn't leave from behind/around the filter thing for the entire time. Not positive if it ate during feedings. We found it bent/dead stuck in the round bar that is attached to the filter pump. Though I don't think it died from being stuck there... I think it drifted there after being dead maybe?

About 4 days in (when I say day's in I mean from initial time of bringing home our first set of fish) we noticed that one of our White Cloud Minnows had no eyeballs? This fish is dark in color so it wasn't immediately apparent. We're not sure if he was that way when we got him or became that way since being in our tank? There is zero eye balls in this fish... just eye sockets with no apparent white layer or puss or anything over them to indicate sickness (like I would have expected if it was fresh or sick). We're also not sure if he's always been this dark. The fish is almost black and our other one that is still alive is light colored. This fish doesn't seem to be picked on or play with the other one. But I kinda like it and am hoping it's just a blind, dark, white cloud minnow?

He can't really eat when we feed the rest of the fish. I purchased a little floating breeder thing yesterday to feed him in separately in the tank but I'm not positive if he got food or not. He had a hard time for a few hours after I released him so I'm a little afraid to do it again without waiting a few days.

Anyways, thoughts? Does it have a killer disease risky to the other fish or just a black, blind white cloud? Thanks!

 

[Rbishop]

The odds are good it is a genetic issue. I would euthanize it. Not much breeding control goes on in the high volume industry to support LFS stock.

Do you have a good liquid test kit, like the one by API, to monitor your tank parameters as it goes thru this fishy cycle? I definitely recommend one. Are you doing frequent large water changes as this tank cycles?

The minnows are basically a cold water fish while the others you have are tropical.

The black skirts can be fin nippers unless in a large group where they tend to keep things amongst themselves.

 

[esoepr1976]

It looks like something the fish was born with, but I think it will make it hard for him to fend for himself. Also, you have several schooling fish in your tank that are in pairs. A schooling fish really needs to be with at least six of it's own kind to be happy, but in a ten gallon tank, unless you only have one schooling fish, there is not enough room to provide a school. Also, your mollies are live bearing fish, so if you have a boy and a girl, you will get more fish. You have lot of fish in a young tank that is likely still cycling. I would make sure you are testing your water regularly (daily), and doing water changes as needed (probably daily), to keep the fish under as little stress as possible during the cycle of the tank. Once the tank has finished the cycling process, you will not need to do daily water changes, but perhaps weekly instead.

Emily

 

[SimFish]

The odds are good it is a genetic issue. I would euthanize it. Not much breeding control goes on in the high volume industry to support LFS stock.

Why kill a fish if it's not from a disease? He seems happy doing his thing since he knows the layout of the tank and the other fish don't beat up on him?


No liquid test kit. They didn't tell us to get one. They said "bring a water sample in 6 weeks and we'll see where you're at"?

Daily water changes? I'm confused. Our instructions don't say to do this and the people said not to change or clean the tank at all for 6-8 weeks while it builds all the proper bacteria in the cycle? Got a link to exact instructions or something? We've not done anything but add in a tiny bit of similar temperature water every few days to keep enough water in the tank to match our heaters minimum line. We add purifyer or whatever to that water first...

We got these types of fish because we wanted a few different kids and they said they all pair together just fine. 10 fish was recommended to start since some would die. And nobody mentioned getting 2 of each as a bad idea But our kids (and us) are hooked on all of these now...

Should we add more of another kind of fish in there or something? Will our "cold water" fish survive? Now I'm frustrated with http://www.leesfeed.net since they are the ones who gave us all these exact recommendations and instructions. Now I feel like we are the fish killers or abusers

 

[SimFish]

Anybody? I'm wondering if I need to be buying stuff at the pet store today. We're leaving to lunch and it's close to Petsmart...

Thanks!

 

[Rbishop]

You asked for thoughts, and I gave you mine. If it isn't a disease then by all means keep it if you like. I wouldn't is all I am saying.

Never trust the advice of an LFS, especially a big box one, in general. Get a liquid test kit so you "know" your parameters. Often, the stores use the dip strips which are not as reliable as a liquid kit.

Not sure what your "instructions" state, but you are in the middle of a fishy cycle. Until the nitogen cycle has completed, you may experience high levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Keeping these items in check without causing potential long term damage or even death is why you should be monitoring with a liquid test kit. Doing water changes during this period does help the fish stay healthy.

Here is a link to get you going...

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?84598-Freshwater-cycling

The fish will most likely be fine, as long as you don't try to get it to the higher end for the tropicals you keep or get it to low for the coldwater ones you have.

 

[metricliman]

+1 Rbishop

 

[esoepr1976]

The fish you have should all get along o.k. together. (the white clouds prefer cooler water, but can handle warmer water as long as you keep it at the lower end of the tropical range). It's not a matter of having fish that don't get along. But, you have several fish that would like to have large groups of their own kind because they are schooling fish, and you just don't have the room for that in your tank. Sometimes, schooling fish that don't have a big enough school can be mean when they would otherwise be peaceful, other times they are shyer than normal, and sometimes they are stressed and more prone to illness. As for not doing water changes during a cycle, that applies mostly to a fishless cycle. In that case, you don't have to worry about fish getting sick from too much ammonia or nitrite, because you are not using fish to cycle the tank (instead you are dosing the tank with ammonia or you are using rotting shrimp or fish). In that case, water changes only slow the cycling process down. However, when you have fish in the tank, you may have to do water changes, so the toxins don't kill the fish during the cycle. It may take a little longer to cycle, but it keeps the fish alive. Also, when cycling with fish, you usually add small amounts of fish at a time rather than a lot all at once. Ten fish that get as large as yours is a lot for a ten gallon that is fully cycled let alone one that isn't. As for anything to buy or do, I would just recommend to use Prime for your water conditioner, because it will help detoxify some of the ammonia and nitrite. Normally 1/5 a cap full treats a ten gallon tank, but it is safe to use a whole cap full.
Emily

 

[SimFish]

Ok, we've bought the liquid test kit and been doing water changes etc. Everything seems pretty good. We get the ammonia levels at .25 or whatever quite often and do water changes but it doesn't seem to help much. I've cleaned the tank as well so I'm thinking its just part of the original cycle still as we are about 6 weeks into it I think? All the fish seem healthy and happy. None have died since those first two...

BUT, I'm concerned with my eyeless minnow still. I put him into a breeding chamber floating at the top of the tank for food but he never seems to eat that I can tell. He must be eating something you would think to survive this long though? The past couple days he looks pretty underweight compared to our healthy minnow. Today I went and bought him blood worms to try but couldn't get him to eat them. I had him in really shallow water in a cup (I tried deep water first) with a chunk of worms and even stirred in food but he didn't eat anything that I could tell. I've also noticed today that his mouth looks perhaps a little flatter then the other minnows and has a white patch on the tip. I'm 99% positive this is new development to go along with his being under weight. Everytime I take a picture the white patch seems to shine on the stupid iphone so I'm not sure this picture is good enough to tell anything from but I'll attach it. Any ideas? Should we get him an antibiotic or something incase he has a mouth infection and that's why he's losing weight and appears to be uninterested in food?

As a side note... our other fish in the tank didn't seem to go after the chunk of bloodworms either when I dumped the cup into the tank to release the fish. The worms just floated to the bottom and crawled into our gravel. Is that something to be worried about or will they eventually figure it out and eat them? Those bloodworm things are freaky!

 

[FreshyFresh]

Ok, we've bought the liquid test kit and been doing water changes etc. Everything seems pretty good. We get the ammonia levels at .25 or whatever quite often and do water changes but it doesn't seem to help much.

Are you testing for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? I wouldn't bother testing, if you cant test for all 3.

0.25ppm ammonia is high. I'm glad you haven't lost any fish, but surprised you haven't. You've got a hardy bunch!

Hopefully you read-up on cycling and what's required to establish and maintain it. It's not a healthy fish environment without it. Please don't take it the wrong way!! I'm not trying to belligerent, but you were given excellent advice in the above posts and you seem to have discounted it.

Joel