Blue Ram acting diffrent is it sick?

[bwd]

Hi,
My set-up is a little over a year old. It is a 36 gal hex (given to me) the temp is 76 f, ph 6.8, ammonia 0, nitrates 0. The fish in it now are 2 Keyhole cichlids, 4 blue rams (2F 2M), 4 Priscilla tetras, 1 African butterfly and 1 Bristlenose. They were put in last February and all were young so I could watch them grow. No problems until now, I noticed 2 days ago one of my rams wasn't swimming normal. Staying at the top of the tank nose straight down or on his side then he will float down as if dead until another fish pokes him or he almost reaches the bottom then he swims back to the top. He is eating and swims normal but at the top of the tank at feeding times. There are no marks or visible problems. He never had these swimming patterns before and was never at the top (none of the other rams or keyholes live in that part of the tank). I also noticed his gills are barely moving. Any help as what to do is appreciated.
Thank You

 

[Lupin]

What are your nitrites? You posted only nitrates. Is this a planted tank? How old is this fish?

 

[bwd]

They are also at 0. No it is not a planted tank. I was told a 36 gal hex is to high for plants without special lighting.

 

[Lupin]

Java fern, Java moss and other low-lighting plants can actually handle situations like this. What test kit are you using? It is odd nitrates would be zero without any plants consuming them. Do you use denitrators?

 

[Blairo1]

Was the tank cycled when the Rams where added?

Your nitrates won't be zero, I don't think I've ever seen or met anyone who had zero nitrates, unless a mistake is being made (or you're using some fancy equipment), you may well be in the 5ppm range, but even in a well planted tank (and I have 5ppm nitrates from the tap) I never saw them drop any lower.

Blue Rams are particularly sensitive to nitrAtes, so I never allow them above 10 ppm, if your test kit is showing zero nitrates I would try and get another test to determine if there is something wrong with the initial readings.

You don't say what your water change schedule is, Blue Rams also need frequent and well matched water changes.

As for the temperature, this is too low for the Blue Rams too - 24C is well below what you should really be keeping them at, given that you have other fish in the tank, 27-28 would be more appropriate, but I often advise people keep Blue Rams in a species only tank with a few hardy dithers capable of withstanding the high temperatures that the Rams require to thrive - 30C (86f). They will live just fine at 28C and spawns are successful, however the development and success rate of fry and their colouration is not as strong as in the warmer temperatures to which their metabolism is best suited - these are fish that live in very warm, shallow pools in the wild, 24C is an arctic winter to them.

Again, a 36 Hex doesn't offer much in the way of footprint due to its shape, and 4 Blues combined with 2 keyholes is a bit of a risky mix, even for a 36 gallon regular tank (ie with a considerably larger footprint). In a 36 gallon Hex a pair of Keyholes and a pair of Rams could work, so IME and IMO you need to reduce the stocking - ie remove a couple of Blue Rams.

The Keyholes, again IME in keeping them with Blues/Bolivians is that they WILL dominate them and chase them off - the Rams then end up living higher in the tank, away from the substrate where they are more able to relax, behave naturally and even spawn.

I would say that your problem is a culmination of stress caused by several factors - the stocking, the temperature and potentially the water change regime and therefore nitrate levels.

What is the KH and GH of your water?

Blair.

 

[bwd]

What I meant by 0 nitrite is .05 I call it 0 because I haven't seen it any lower in any of the tanks I have had. I change 10 gals a week. I have not had any problems with the fish getting along. I re-stocked this tank last February with fish and groupings for this size tank as advised by members of this site and fish employees from 2 lfs said I had a good set-up. I moved the fish originally in it to a 50 gallon tank.
all the other fish in the tank appear to be fine.
Lupin I will look into the plants you mentioned.

 

[Blairo1]

I'm offering you my opinion as someone who has kept both of these fish for quite some time, together, in a much larger tank, and still seen problems. I have particularly specialized in Rams, both Mikrogeophagus altispinosa and ramirezi, so I'm not just spouting rubbish without having done a lot of experimenting first hand.

I'm saying that 2 keyholes in a 36 hex is quite reasonable, sure. But to then add to that 4 Blue Rams, well, you don't really have a whole lot of floorspace and again, from my experience with these fish, they will not do well unless they really have a decent amount of space they can feel secure in.

2 Rams you could get away with, but those other two rams aren't going to help because all they do is take up even more of the space that you don't have. I'm sorry but a hex tank just doesn't cut it as a 36 - length and width is the real kicker here, floorspace is what its all about with your cichlids, and a hex is much more limited due to its nature.

Trust me on this, I'm not trying to burst your bubble, or pee on your campfire, I'm just telling you what you should be thinking about doing IF you really want to keep (particularly) Blue Rams. So many people have such a hard time keeping them alive because they don't appreciate that you need to accommodate to them, that means choosing fish that live in the higher temps, incredibly soft, acidic water etc. Which is very limiting, and hence why so many don't want to accept/hear or put it into action. I said there is a compromise, you can keep your water closer to 28C and the Rams will be much happier in this, heck, even 27C compared to your cold water would see you a marked increase in their colour and activity. But because you keep other fish in the tank, it is going to have to be a compromise (for the Rams).

How much time do the Rams spend near the substrate?

Whether you've seen it or not, the keyholes WILL dominate the rams, this may not mean further action than what occurred initially, or that you will see them fight, but the beauty of cichlids is that they do not have to fight to suppress another fish, simple behavioral and signal actions are enough... I've often found that Blue Rams, unlike Bolivians, don't get on as well in groups, hence why whenever I keep them, or recommend them, I will only recommend a pair, in their own tank, with some other species hardy enough to endure the temperatures in which they will thrive. In a regular 40-50 gallon tank, two pairs of rams is quite reasonable with some suitable community fish and this can be done successfully.

What do you intend to do about your low temperature, this is really not good for Rams and in itself could be what has finished it off.

Also no mention of your KH or GH, and your pH is acceptable although I tend to recommend they are kept in a pH of 6 or below. These are fish you really need to accommodate to not compromise with, that is, if you want to have success in keeping them alive, healthy and spawning.

My Blues did fine in 28C water, as did my Keyholes and all of my other fish, you will see an increase in metabolism in this higher temp, the Keyholes will be more active, eat a little more etc etc. But just be sure to adjust the temperature VERY gradually - a degree every day or two.

Another thing worth asking is what you feed and how often - sometimes if a fish appears to be having buoyancy issues it can be something as simple as an over-feeding/eating problem, the fishes stomach becomes so full that it impedes on the swimbladder, causing it to struggle with controlling its buoyancy. Have you noticed that this fish eats far more than the others? Have you seen it poop in the last few days?

Blair.

 

[Star_Rider]

"What I meant by 0 nitrite is .05 "
bdw are you referring to nitrate?
If you are seeing nitrite you are having issues in the tank.

I'm surprised Blair didn't catch this

btw Blair is not just blowing wind here.. the suggestions are valid and not without foundation.

Ramirezi are notoriously fussy fish.. they do well in tanks with discus as these two species live in very similar water conditions.

ie: very clean water that is warm
arguably the discus can handle cooler water as adults..tho there is a significant discussion re this.
blairs suggestions are very good..you could benefit by following some of these suggestions.

do you know the source of your rams??

 

[bwd]

I have already started the temp increase it is now 78f. I feed them once a day a small pinch of chicild flake food and a small amount of dried bloodworms. I have noticed the keyholes dominating the rams but not fighting with them. one question is if the rams only grow to 2.5" why do you need a 50 gal tank for 4 of them? I had a 50 gal tank with 4 discuses for two years (2003-2005) with no problems (other than a case of ich once a year) but had to bring them to the lfs when my wife became ill because I couldn't care for them as needed. If I had known the rams where as delicate as the discus I would not have gotten them for this tank. This hex tank was given to me from a friend whose brother passed and no one wanted them. It was full of LakeMawli cichlids (40). I donated them to the lfs and put the 8 I liked in my 50 gal. My wife is still ill but it is at the point where I could again set up my tank.
So if I dump the rams what can I put with the keyholes?
Blair01 I do not take offense at your suggestions and appreciate your input as an experienced keeper of this type of fish. I just wanted you to know I am not an inexperienced child of 10 years setting up his first tank which is the impression I got from your first reply. The problems with the ram if it is not an internal illness must be the keyhole are picking on this one fish. My other rams swim in the bottom 8" of the tank and hide in the silk fake plants and swim in the open areas.

Now I am really

 

[Blairo1]

Star_Rider, good to hear from you, I did notice the nitrIte slip, but I had thought the OP probably meant nitrAte, I was going to ask, but you're on the game so caught me out and beat me to it . lol.

"I just wanted you to know I am not an inexperienced child of 10 years setting up his first tank which is the impression I got from your first reply."

Hey sorry, not what I intended to put across at all, I hate how intonation can be misinterpreted in posts so I apologize if that's how it came across. In my experience with this fish a lot of people don't realize quite how awkward they can be, so I just go from square one with the intention of ensuring that everything is properly covered and clear, even if that may seem like the stupidly simple stuff, you never know what can be missed, even by an advanced aquarist (we are all humans after all!) Plus I'm a jokey guy, so when I said - "Your arctic water", I was just kidding about, not trying to be dismissive or harsh!

Glad to hear the temperature is going up gradually and as I say - don't put the other fish out by going too high, 27 - 28 is really quite reasonable and makes the world of difference comparative to the lower temperature you had it at.

Your feeding routine sounds good, certainly not over feeding, so I don't see that this is causing the problem at all. You might find more success if you replace the bloodworm with something that is easier to digest, ie mysis shrimp, because you feed it every day. Insects aren't so easy to digest, so as a treat, great, but a daily staple, you'd be better with something easier to digest.

Sorry to hear about the difficulty at home and I fully understand how challenging this can make even the simple tasks, let alone looking after finicky fish. Blue Rams IME are not like Bolivians, they will co-habit in larger groups, but in small groups they don't do as well and often whether fighting is seen or not, they end up continually stressed. I try to give Blue Rams a 10" square (resting) territory, each (if in a tank with other fish), so you can see easily how they can quickly fill up the space of a tank, even with their small size. However if you have only a pair to their OWN tank, I've had lots of success keeping and breeding them in 10 gallons, although I prefer and recommend 15.

I know it seems odd, but the smallest fish in South America would amaze you by keeping some of the largest territories - unlike Africans who are happy with their rock crevasse, SA fish have the luxury of large open territories due to the ample space of their environment... This is one reason why you find overstocking will work in an African tank (to some extent - depending on species) whereas overstocking a SA tank will bring nothing but trouble nine times out of ten.

When you add to this fish that habituate even larger area's you start to encounter problems. I'm not saying it can't be done, it can be, but carefully and with continuous monitoring - this doesn't sound ideal for your circumstances. Keyholes who have a shy and reclusive reputation are actually pretty boisterous when they feel confident and Blue Rams just don't know how to deal with this. I have a hyper territorial Bolivian Ram who my 7.5" Rotkeil is terrified of, but the Keyhole, who is still only 3", is the ONLY fish I own that will not only stand up to that Bolivian, but SCARE HIM OFF!!! Star_Rider has probably seen my male Bolivian and should be able to tell you just how incredible that is.

I think that if you removed one of the pairs of Rams you'd have much more success in this tank because it would alleviate a lot of the stress caused by that other pair fighting for dominance. I think you are more than capable of keeping Blue Rams, but you need to make it easier for yourself by reducing the potential conflicts and therefore problems that arise from such conflict. That's all. You've kept Discus for a couple of years, Blue Rams should be easy business for you after that .

Due to it being only the one Ram (is it the male or female by the way?) I suspect that it's not just the Keyholes, it is at the bottom of the hierarchal order of the other Rams, and this is why I would advise you to remove the other pair altogether - a pair of Rams will get on just great in this size tank, they'd love it and the Keyholes having more space available, would probably ease off them a load too.

I hope that helps!

Oh, and nothing wrong with your tank, especially as it was an inheritance, lets just get it running so that its something you aren't worried about or frustrated over, so that you can really enjoy it and the knowledge that the fish are truly happy.

:thumbsup:
Blair.