Brown Stems/Leaves

[southrock]

I have a 180 gal planted tank, CO2 injected(reactor), carbonate hardness of 5, Ph 6.8, 4-96 Watt PC lights, UV sterilizer, temp usually between 78 and 80. Substrate is Red Flint with 1 inch of Laterite, with substrate heating.

For about four months, I was exprimenting with dry traces. I used Plantex CSM, and added boric acid at a 1-12 ratio. I figured there is about 160 gallons of water column, and I dosed 2 tsp. KNO3, 3 tsp. K2SO4, 3 tsp. Epsom salt, and 1/4 tsp Mono Sodium Phosphate. I used enough traces to make my Hagen Iron test read between 0.1 and 0.25 mg/L (not very accurate, but dry traces come with no aquarium instructions.) I dosed twice a week, changing water (50-60 gal) once a week.

Plants grew, but old growth on stem plants started turning brown, first leaf edges, then stems, until eventually the bottom of the plants seemed dead. Tops grew fine. I also noticed that snails in the tank had hard white deposits on the shells. Water was becoming cloudy on a regular basis, even after changing the UV sterilizer bulb.

About three weeks ago, I changed the routine. After a water change, I add 2 tsp KNO3, 2 tsp K2SO4, 1/4 tsp Mono Potassium Phosphate, and 6 capfulls of Flourish TRACES (not Flourish supplement). No Epsom Salt. After three days I dose 6 caps of Flourish Traces again, then leave it for the rest of the week, until the water change. BTW, the recommended dose of traces would be 8 caps for 160 gal.

Plants are overall doing a bit better, water is clear, but some old growth is starting to turn brown again. I seem to be missing something, but I can’t put a finger on it.

-SR

 

[darren]

My current plant dilemna is almost identical to yours, and currently have found no remedy.

Have you been able to identify which algae is choking the older leaves? In my tank, it is mostly the green spot, but upon closer inspection I am wondering if there is an encrusting red algae in there.

Perhaps more research on older leave physiology

I do not fertilize reguarly, in fact since I have been (about a month) my tank is doing worse. The more I futz with it, the more algae breaks out.

I have also been reading on trying to kill the algae with a copper solution, but the literature says it will kill vals too, and they are starting to come back.


Good luck, Darren

 

[southrock]

Darren, I’m sure it’s not an algae problem. This is the plant itself turning brown and eventually the green stem withering to a mere spindly stem. I want to say it’s due to an imbalance of nutrients, I’m just not sure which ones. I thought it was Magnesium, but I was dosing Epsom salts for quite a while, and still had the problem. I stopped and the problem remains the same.

From everything I have learned here, and IME, you don’t want to stop adding nutrients. The plants will not grow well and algae will. I really don't have any algae problems to speak of. Rosette plants and Crypts grow well. New growth on stems grows well, too. Old growth dies, which tells me the problem is a moveable nurient. I’ve also read that the production of Iron Phosphate would cause something like this, but my phosphate levels are always low, and I think I’m dosing enough Iron.

Hopefully we’ll get to the bottom of this. In the meantime I would dose nutrients to your plants, and stay tuned....

-SR

 

[Jared]

2 watts/gal may be a little low for some plants. How tall is the tank? What are your GH, KH and CO2 levels? You may need more light for some of your species. CO2 really kicks in at roughtly 2.5 watts/gal and up. In any case, if you use CO2 you should always know the actual amount of CO2 in your water: too little means your plants aren't getting the benefit; too much can be lethal to your fish. You can use the chart at the Krib to derive your CO2 level from your pH and KH readings.

How much you need to dose depends on *many* factors -- the number and type of plants, light, CO2 and the amount/frequency of your water changes. While you can make calculations, I find it easiest to *test* the levels of the most important nutrients:

http://www.brainyday.com/jared/aquarium/testkits.htm
http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/barr_02_01.shtml

Once you know you current levels, calculations can be helpful for dosing after water changes.

Root feeders (and even stem plants) like substrate fertilization. There are many choices. For macronutrients I like pieces of Jobe's fertilizer sticks (the Palm & Fern or the 13-4-5 formulation -- the NPK info is on the back of the blister pack). Bury 1/3 to 1/2 of a stick deeply at the roots of a large plant or a grouping. Flourish Tabs are good for getting micronutrients to the roots.

Speaking of depth, how deep is your substrate? Usually the laterite is mixed in through the substrate, rather than used as a layer.

See my Resource Page http://www.brainyday.com/jared/aquarium/info.htm for more info on all aspects of keeping plants.

You might want to turn off the UV -- we started out with one too, but it's really not necessary (you can always turn it on for specific purposes) and it may have a negative effect on some nutrients/products. I think it tends to precipitate the iron -- which is OK for the root feeders, but less beneficial for the stem plants.


HTH,
Jared

 

[wetmanNY]

When new growth is misshapen or discolored you can suspect nutrient deficiency is among the possibilities. When mature growth is affected, you might suspect toxicities.


Fertilizers don't make plants grow. Plants grow, and you replace nutrients that have been used up.

 

[darren]

have you had any success or further progress with your brown stems/leaves?

Upon closer inspection (and a lot of contemplation) I am totally stumped with my problem (which sounds like yours). My older leaves just are not growing then wither and die off, particularly the ludwigia spp. On my moneywort, brown holes are appearing, usually just one that starts off small and grows big.

Somethings I have noticed:

- Wrong pH/KH balance, co2 way to low.
- Perhaps too low nitrate. Boosting nitrates has helped a lot with growth of tops of stemmed plants, but older leaves-nothing.
- vals are returning from the move
- echinodurus is not growing very well.

Test: I have let the pond snails breed rampantly. I do have a bad green spot algae that will suffocate no-growing leaves, and the snails have been amazing at cleaning the algae off. If they didn't look so ugly I would be stoked on them, they are amazing algae eaters and havnt touched a live plant.

The result from this snail experiment supports your hypothesis of a molecule problem (macro, micro deficiency or excess) and not an algal b/c i have watched them clean off old leaves completely (with the thought that maybe the old leaves couldnt grow b/c of algae cover) and still the old leaves kind of curl and turn over even.

Final note: I have noticed I am getting a little fuzzy green algae right at the very growing tip of the ludwigia tops which doesnt last for long b/c i do get good growth there (new leaves). Why would algae stick the growing part of a plant?

Please keep in touch, as I am very interested with what you learn with you tank!

Cheers, Darren

 

[southrock]

Hi Jared. Here are more details...

The height of my tank is 24". The Kh is aroud 5 dH, the Ph is 6.8, which puts the Co2 level at about 25 mg/l, right around where I want it (I think?). The gH is around 9 dH, higher than the 5 dH it used to be before I started dosing epsom salts. I have stopped doing that, hopefully my weekly water changes will bring it back down. That may be part of the problem. My substrate is about 4 1/2 inches - the laterite started out being in the lower 1", but due to uprooting and replanting, it’s pretty well mixed up - I suffer from cloudy water whenever I have to re-decorate. I never really considered putting more nutrients in the substrate - something I may consider now if anyone using Laterite could recommend it. I will try turning off the UV for a few weeks - its worth a shot.

Wet, I believe you are right about toxicity, the balance of nutrients in the tank is somehow out of whack, I’m just not able to figure out what there may be too much of. (maybe Magnesium?)

Darren, I had the SAME problem wuth moneywart! I removed it from the tank because I couldn’t figure out why it was happening. That was the start of it.
I also have a problem with new leave on Vals - the leaves on new plants from the LFS are straight and smooth, but the new leaves that grow in my tank are ruffled and hard. It almost seems like the new leaves are getting their carbon from kH, rather than Co2. That seems impossible with the Co2 level being at 25mg/l.

I’m going to stay away from Epsom salts for a while, stick with the minimal KNO3 and K2SO4 dosing, dose traces normally, AND dose Iron in minimal amounts along with the traces. Oh, and turn off the UV.

I’ll keep in touch, you do the same, my man!

-SR

 

[Jared]

"Plants grew, but old growth on stem plants started turning brown, first leaf edges, then stems, until eventually the bottom of the plants seemed dead. Tops grew fine"

Perhaps Tom Barr will weigh in, but I think light is the culprit. Even with our 2.8 watts/gal on our 24" deep tank, the bottoms of stems plants are never as nice as the tops. Dont' forget the inverse square rule: the energy (light in this case) diminishes as the square of the distance. I fear your 2 watts/gal may not be enough. I don't think your GH is hurting.

Jared

 

[darren]

Tank Specs:
29g
2x65 watt JBJ lighting (10K on for 3 hours, and 10K+6500K for 5 hours, 10K for 3 hours. 130 just seemed like too much light so i gave the tank a sunrise and sunset)

90% flourite substrate (w/some old sand). very old though~4yrs.

Pressurized CO2 (used to work in a restaurant so got all the stuff there, plus a lifetime refills of co2 from 7-up! I use that Eheim diffuser thing that airates the bubbles, then i positioned it below a power head. this is not very efficient and it just produces a zillion air bubbles all over the tank and i can only get the pH to 7.5 (test with my new Milwaukee pH pen! ...ooh the tank just turned on, i love that sound!) and with a KH at 4, that puts my co2 in water tooo low.

AquaClear 150. (think i might change this for a cannister filter)

Nutrients:

I think I have gotten my macros in order and things are improving slightly. Using Chuck's calculator I tried to dose everything accordingly (have all the individual ingredients) including nitrates, phosphates (fleet enema) lots of potassium, trace including Fe (which i am changing to Flourish and Flourish iron just to see), Mg.

Also I have been adding calcium to reach ~60ppm. I read that GH test kits test the CaCO3 in your water, then can extrapolate the amount of Ca and Mg in your water (which is what most pmdd add through MgSO4, but no Ca source other than water changes). I was shooting for a slightly hard water and from a chart i found on the Krib, a GH of 8 was = to 60ppm Ca2+. Well, my water here is super soft, and i got the 2001 water quality report for SF, CA and it said Ca2+ ranged from 0-29 ppm. This is something new for me and my tank, and i went to Safeway and bought pure calcium pills. well, my chemistry teacher would cringe right now, but these things don't dissolve in water very well, duh. but enough where i put one pill in a liter water bottle, shake it up and add some milky water every day. easy enough, but maybe the marine reef people have some sort of liquid stuff.

So what i am getting right now is good growth from my plants, happy with the elevated NO3 (15ppm), phophates and maybe even some calcium (??). the pond snails are just munching away (anubias look a lot better clean) and i got a zillion of them now. they have cleaned off all the hair algae, brown and red algae but leaving the green spot algae, which, yes is still clinging to the lower leaves, i think a BIG sign that they are not growing. i do still believe that the old leaves are not growing for some nutrient reason, and when they slow the GSA gets em. The echinodermus seem paricularly prone.

here is my new dosing schedule (dose at night!)

1 - P, K, Fe, Traces
2 - (enjoy)
3 - NO3
4 - (enjoy)
5 - (enjoy)
6 - K, Fe, traces
7 - water change (10g)

Cheers, Darren

 

[Jared]

Darren, yes I would try to reduce the surface agitation. With those readings it looks as if you are getting very little benefit from your CO2 -- and with all that light it spells algae trouble. In the meantime, perhaps you can up your CO2 bubble rate.

Jared