Bumblebee shrimp ripped berries & swimmerets from a cherry shrimp!

Actually, the 5x dose of Prime was, as the label on the product indicates, in order to detoxify nitrites, not ammonia. My invert tank's ammonia is now 0 and was ~0 at the time. I will repeat: the Prime 5x was to neutralize NITRITE, not ammonia.
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Fine fine. I simpley misunderstood.

Yes, I've been doing water changes since the ammonia showed up and have continued with the nitrite. I was just trying to neutralize the nitrite in the tank which would have been left over after changing water. A 30% water change leaves 70% of the old water and therefore 70% of the nitrite behind.
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You would think it would work like that but usually if the nitrite is in a small amount 1 water change will do the trick. Maybe that's just me.

Yes, it is a planted tank but I have been doing water changes - actually I've been taking water from a very well established, larger planted tank
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Really with this method you are exchanging dirty water for dirty water. Usually a water change involves adding fresh/clean water. Plants don't remove everything from the water so even a planted tank needs water changes to remove TDS. There are things in the water that can build up that typical tests don't test for.
 
I don't have time ATM to answer with a super complex reply, but I know I went "huh??" when I heard about the 5x dosing to eliminate nitrite. In my ancient bottle of Prime (I estimate about 3.5 years old, brought it over from when I lived in an apartment with municipal tap water vs. house with dechlorinated well water) I only see a mention of detoxifying AMMONIA not nitrite, in an emergency, by doing 4 drops per gallon.

I've never added Prime to the main aquarium. I know people do, when they do water changes with Pythons and such. But I've always done water changes with buckets, so I've never added Prime directly to the tank...and even though there is no mention of it being unsafe to do so, I wouldn't, because if you smell the stuff it reeks of sulphur. So I don't want that going straight into my tank!

DeeDee, I think it would be beneficial for you to do your water changes with seasoned water. Get a 5 gallon bucket, fill it, and drop an airstone in it. It costs next to nothing to get a used air pump rated for like a 10 gallon tank, and the Whispers and Renas are quiet enough not to be annoying. Add your Prime to the water and let it sit for 24 hours. (You need the Prime because you have chloramine in your water no doubt, which does not evaporate like chlorine does.) Then you can change water 'til your heart's content!

I know you are not lazy...you're always screwing around with your tanks ;) But I think you run your tanks in an unconventional way with the infrequent water changes, if not total avoidance of them and only topping off. I think it's because you are scared of your tap water. I get it, but your water is probably very hard so your TDS must be ought of sight. This is hard on lots of fish (don't know about shrimp) so you should get on a regular schedule of small, weekly water changes. The water doesn't take away anything beneficial...the mulm, biofilm and whatever else is not in the water column. So all you are doing is diluting metabolites and TDS, which is beneficial to any species.

Shrimp keeing is new so I can see people saying stuff like "shrimp do better with fewer water changes" - kind of like the way people were in the beginning with fish keeping - using aquarium salt, carbon, UG filters and such. But the truth is, no fish (or shrimp) do better with no water changes! If they are "sensitive" fish that like "aged water" then just do small, frequent ones instead of large ones, and condition/season the water ahead of time in a bucket.
 
You know I just read my bottle of Prime and it said to use 2x the regular dose to detoxify nitrite. It said you could use UP TO 5x in case of emergencies. I think when dealing with shrimp it's better to use less chemicals instead of more. Perhaps 2x the dose would have been enough? Something to consider in the future.

Also I agree with platytudes about not putting the Prime directly in the tank. I mean with my larger tank I throw it right in but in my smaller tanks I mix it in the bucket. The smaller water volume just seems like it would not dilute as well.
 
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The 2x dose is for exceptionaly high chloramines. There is a period before the nitrite statement.

Whether you put the prime in the tank or not as far as I can tell has made no difference to my fish or the ghost shrimp I had for about 10 months or the cherry shrimp I have now but I never dose over 2x. Instructions do say it is better to mix before addition but prime can be added directly.

But the dosing with prime then letting the water sit for 24 hrs is not always good. If as both DeeDee and I have water that leaves you with .50 ammonia after treatment I believe you need to get it in the tank asap to give the filter time to reduce the ammonia while it is detoxified by the prime.

As was said that is partially why it was thought the prime would be better also. Adding extra ammonia to be turned into more nitrite so you now have ammonia and nitrite with the extra ammonia being turned into nitrite that would not have been there otherwise verses dosing with prime and letting the BB catch up I Would have and have done just what she did except I never dose more than 2x Which now seems to be a lucky thing.

Hope your tanks all get back on track for you.
 
Cluunox said:
The 2x dose is for exceptionaly high chloramines. There is a period before the nitrite statement.

Whether you put the prime in the tank or not as far as I can tell has made no difference to my fish or the ghost shrimp I had for about 10 months or the cherry shrimp I have now but I never dose over 2x. Instructions do say it is better to mix before addition but prime can be added directly.

But the dosing with prime then letting the water sit for 24 hrs is not always good. If as both DeeDee and I have water that leaves you with .50 ammonia after treatment I believe you need to get it in the tank asap to give the filter time to reduce the ammonia while it is detoxified by the prime.

As was said that is partially why it was thought the prime would be better also. Adding extra ammonia to be turned into more nitrite so you now have ammonia and nitrite with the extra ammonia being turned into nitrite that would not have been there otherwise verses dosing with prime and letting the BB catch up I Would have and have done just what she did except I never dose more than 2x Which now seems to be a lucky thing.

Hope your tanks all get back on track for you.
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Thank you for reading my posts carefully enough to respond to what I actually wrote!

blue2fyre said:
You would think it would work like that but usually if the nitrite is in a small amount 1 water change will do the trick. Maybe that's just me.

I'm sorry, but logically this makes no sense to me. How does removing a fraction of the water remove all the nitrite?

Really with this method you are exchanging dirty water for dirty water. Usually a water change involves adding fresh/clean water. Plants don't remove everything from the water so even a planted tank needs water changes to remove TDS. There are things in the water that can build up that typical tests don't test for.
Actually, it is a common, established practice to only top up water in planted tanks with deep sand beds, at least it is here in San Francisco. Such water is just fine, as has been discovered through actual practice. Another example of low rates of water change can be found in the Diana Walstad style, el Naturalé planted tank.
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Well, I still think Seachem owes me several expensive shrimp's worth of product.

The new mama-shrimp is doing well. I think the berries are popping sometime soon!
 
Glad things are well now. Have you tried writing to Seachem? On their website they have a forum too, you know...and I've heard they are very responsive and helpful. The company has been around a long while and still has a good reputation, which isn't easy to maintain - lots of people are dissatisfied by companies like Jungle aka Junkle. I'm sure you can be polite to them which would be the way to do it. ;)

I know there are some established practices that call for very few water changes, but I can't see how changing a smidge of water weekly could do anything but help. I'm not saying get all crazy doing 50% W/Cs and deep gravel vacs. I'm just saying change a little water to dilute some of the TDS, hormones, metabolites and whatever else is in the water that plants can't purify.

I realize you have a situation with your tap water that is foreign to me, so I am not the most knowledgeable to comment here. But I know there are times, like when there is an ammonia or nitrite spike from a dead fish or overfeeding accident, where changing water can only do good provided the water is treated properly. Maybe Prime is not the best dechlorinator for you to use but rather something like Kent Ammonia Detox - Ammonia, Chloramine and Chlorine Neutralizer. Here's a link to the product info if you're interested:
http://www.petco.com/product/6096/K...nia,-Chloramine-and-Chlorine-Neutralizer.aspx
 
I'm sorry, but logically this makes no sense to me. How does removing a fraction of the water remove all the nitrite?
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Well if you go by that logic then you would never reach 0 nitrites unless you removed 100% of the water which no one does. I'm just saying that usually doing a partial water change is enough to remove a small amount(less than 1) of nitrite.

Actually, it is a common, established practice to only top up water in planted tanks with deep sand beds, at least it is here in San Francisco. Such water is just fine, as has been discovered through actual practice. Another example of low rates of water change can be found in the Diana Walstad style, el Naturalé planted tank.
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I have read about the Walstad method and even tried it myself but I kept doing small weekly water changes. It never hurt anything.
I'm still saying there are many things still in the water that plants cannot remove and you can't measure with conventional tests. Plus since you have a tank going through a mini cycle with shrimp in it, water changes would be beneficial to help keep the ammonia and nitrite levels under control so they don't harm your shrimp.
If you don't want to do water changes then fine. Just seems risky to me considering how sensitive inverts are to water quality.
I'm just trying to help I promise. I've been keeping shrimp for a while and you said you didn't have much experience. It sounds like you are having a few shrimp deathes and I'm trying to help explain why that may be happening.
 
The Walstad method also (if I'm correct, maybe not) calls for very light stocking and very heavy planting...and I know you tend to stock on the heavy side, Dee.

Anyway, just do what works for you! No one is saying you're a bad fishkeeper or anything. Just saying that if you can figure out the ammonia issue with your tap water I'm sure your fish would thrive with a bit of fresh water on a regular basis now and then. I know it encourages spawning in many breeds.
 
Well, I do appreciate the helpful sentiments.

I keep my tanks with deep sand beds and, in that they use their substrate as a mechanically passive biological filter, they are similar to Walstad tanks in some respects. However, they are not Walstad method and there is no particular recommended stocking level.

And yes, yes, people do fine with ammonia in their tap. So do I. My water is very soft, PH 8.8, and has ammonia. Yes, my cycled tanks with plants in them take care of the ammonia when I do (and yes, I do occasionally) change water. When topping off I have used Prime to condition the water and for changes I use a little Neutral Regulator to condition it.

Oh, and the shrimp tank was cycled already. The current epicycle is from a nutrient spike.

I guess I've been a little b*tchy because a) I lost some shrimps and that upsets me b) I complained about the product's labeling leading me to kill those shrimps and then I was given advice which did not reflect what I had written or what is written on the product's label c) have allowed myself to get into exchanges about water changes, cycling, etc., when all I'd meant to do was sound off about Seachem's labeling practices and the claims they make for their products.

My shrimp were fine before the incident (except for hunger) with Prime and they are fine now.

My questions about feeding and aggression on the part of my bumblebee shrimp are answered.

I'm writing to Seachem about it.

Word is out that Prime can be hazardous to shrimps in large doses.

'nuff said!
 
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