Cant pinpoint the deficiency

[plantbrain]

I have done the co2 untill my fish are sick test a couple of times in the past month just to make sure that was good. TI have been dealing with gda/gsa for quite some time in this tank, this has me thinking that there is a fert excess causing another fert deficiency. Im not too good when it comes to chemical properties but I think these guys are on to something over at APC.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...12-cant-figure-out-deficiency.html#post536269

Thanks for the input.

The blind leading the blind?

I doubt they know much about allocation of carbon in aquatic plants.
It's far more likely and far more significant than any other "nutrient".
You are welcomed to chase your tail.

I've stated the issue, I've also showed without a doubt that the excess or other nutrient related issues CANNOT possibly be the cause in and of themselves, done it many times, in many tanks, so have many others.
Ca, Mg, K+ ratios, balances...........this is complete baloney/rubbish.

I've never seen any correlation in plant health, stunting, algae in a huge range for each of these, 50ppm ranges for each(see? Hard data over time on multiple aquariums). Where was my GDA? Why have I been able to have severla tanks, but only got GDA that lasted till I allowed the plants to fill in and adjusted the CO2? Then was gone?
Tap and Mg/Ca/K+ never changed.

I've done this and tested this several times starting around 2000.
I've never seen any cases where these other folks had any reference control to date, wonder why?

How can they test without one?
Hummmm..........

I recently took on client who'd had GDA for 1 year, lowered the light(what'd this do? It did NOT lower their K+/Ca/Mg) and in a week, it was gone, no other changes where needed, planted grew better, healthier, healthier fish etc.

What might reducing the light do?
What demand by plants would this reduce first and foremost?
It is not on any "deficiency chart" BTW.

This is not personal ill will or anything or the sort etc.........but it is about how you make a decision and use logic, not just belief.

It' is not an easy thing to come to terms with, but you will be much wiser if you can. But then we forget and have to reconfirm and be aware of later on.........most of us go through this process. I have, many have.
Address CO2, this can be by reduction in light intensity(several ways to do this). Be careful with it, adjust slow and methodically.

I think several have already mentioned these issues, but you have assumed that your assumptions are infallible(never the case). Who can argue with that??:lipssealedsmilie:

I never assume my CO2 is perfect.
I learned my lesson, doubted, been back and forth, but now I know.
It is good to learn from experience, as long as it's not your own.
At this point, I think you will have to go down this hard road, mess with algae, rather than sticking to plant horticulture.
Maybe you will get some correlation, I'm sure you will find some if you keep changing things eventually.........but it implies nothing about cause.

CO2 is hardly some simple thing, and light plays a massive factor.

Hopefully you will figure this out.
Here's a much better link to your issue than any mumbo off APC:

http://www.tropica.com/article.asp?type=aquaristic&id=142

Read it a few times and read it carefully.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[bsmith]

The blind leading the blind?

I doubt they know much about allocation of carbon in aquatic plants.
It's far more likely and far more significant than any other "nutrient".
You are welcomed to chase your tail.

I've stated the issue, I've also showed without a doubt that the excess or other nutrient related issues CANNOT possibly be the cause in and of themselves, done it many times, in many tanks, so have many others.
Ca, Mg, K+ ratios, balances...........this is complete baloney/rubbish.

I've never seen any correlation in plant health, stunting, algae in a huge range for each of these, 50ppm ranges for each(see? Hard data over time on multiple aquariums). Where was my GDA? Why have I been able to have severla tanks, but only got GDA that lasted till I allowed the plants to fill in and adjusted the CO2? Then was gone?
Tap and Mg/Ca/K+ never changed.

I've done this and tested this several times starting around 2000.
I've never seen any cases where these other folks had any reference control to date, wonder why?

How can they test without one?
Hummmm..........

I recently took on client who'd had GDA for 1 year, lowered the light(what'd this do? It did NOT lower their K+/Ca/Mg) and in a week, it was gone, no other changes where needed, planted grew better, healthier, healthier fish etc.

What might reducing the light do?
What demand by plants would this reduce first and foremost?
It is not on any "deficiency chart" BTW.

This is not personal ill will or anything or the sort etc.........but it is about how you make a decision and use logic, not just belief.

It' is not an easy thing to come to terms with, but you will be much wiser if you can. But then we forget and have to reconfirm and be aware of later on.........most of us go through this process. I have, many have.
Address CO2, this can be by reduction in light intensity(several ways to do this). Be careful with it, adjust slow and methodically.

I think several have already mentioned these issues, but you have assumed that your assumptions are infallible(never the case). Who can argue with that??:lipssealedsmilie:

I never assume my CO2 is perfect.
I learned my lesson, doubted, been back and forth, but now I know.
It is good to learn from experience, as long as it's not your own.
At this point, I think you will have to go down this hard road, mess with algae, rather than sticking to plant horticulture.
Maybe you will get some correlation, I'm sure you will find some if you keep changing things eventually.........but it implies nothing about cause.

CO2 is hardly some simple thing, and light plays a massive factor.

Hopefully you will figure this out.
Here's a much better link to your issue than any mumbo off APC:

http://www.tropica.com/article.asp?type=aquaristic&id=142

Read it a few times and read it carefully.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Tom I dont understand how you can still think that co2 is the issue. I have stated on every forum that I have gassed my fish untill they are almost comatose. I have also cut light in half before with co2 still being high and the problem still persisted.

All I want to do is fix the problem I just dont see how you want me to put more co2 in the tank when the fish are already at their limit and cut lighting when it has already be done.

 

[jpappy789]

I recently took on client who'd had GDA for 1 year, lowered the light(what'd this do? It did NOT lower their K+/Ca/Mg) and in a week, it was gone, no other changes where needed, planted grew better, healthier, healthier fish etc.

I really wish this had worked for me. granted, it was also largely a nonplanted tank.

 

[Riiz]

Tom I dont understand how you can still think that co2 is the issue. I have stated on every forum that I have gassed my fish untill they are almost comatose. I have also cut light in half before with co2 still being high and the problem still persisted.

All I want to do is fix the problem I just dont see how you want me to put more co2 in the tank when the fish are already at their limit and cut lighting when it has already be done.

Maybe you reduced light your lighting by too much? Can you raise the fixture instead of shutting off half the bulbs?

 

[plantbrain]

Tom I dont understand how you can still think that co2 is the issue. I have stated on every forum that I have gassed my fish untill they are almost comatose. I have also cut light in half before with co2 still being high and the problem still persisted.

All I want to do is fix the problem I just dont see how you want me to put more co2 in the tank when the fish are already at their limit and cut lighting when it has already be done.

It's called experience and doubt.
These things just do not exist for some folks and not for others without some dang good reason.

I've felt the same as you do in the past.

So what do you think it is?
Honestly? Not some BS claims and other hokey muck.

Why can I consistently address all these issues in multiple tanks without fail? Why can others do this to a high degree in multiple tanks a swell?
Is it really just luck or something?

I'm not big on belief or luck.
I'm wise enough to realize that our own assumptions get the better of us, and we do get gun shy if we gassed the fish etc once or killed etc.
I also have enough experience to know what it is NOT.

I know for some folks, this is a real hard lesson to get.
I'd keep the filter clean, do the water changes, slowly adjust the CO2 and light and give it a little time to work out. Allow the plants to over grow a bit also. You need some way to ver slow and methodically to adjust the rate of CO2 gas being added.

No CO2 at night, good flow through, needle wheel, etc


Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[gpb]

I would purchase about six Olive Nerite snails. They will not overrun your tank and the eggs they lay are sterile in fresh water. They only eat algae and will not eat any of your plants!!

 

[bsmith]

I have been running half light and not adding k2so4 since my Sunday 50% water change. GDA and GSA has not shown back up yet. Plants still look like crap but that is going to be the case for a couple of weeks im sure.

Obviously it is easy to "over dose" lighting. But is this the sole cause of my plants dieng here? I would think that excess light would still allow your plants to thrive like before but that algae would eventually take over and then strangle the plants to death. Not the case here.

I will keep updating and hopefully get some decent testing equipment tomorrow.

Thanks to everyone for their opinions.

 

[Riiz]

I have been running half light and not adding k2so4 since my Sunday 50% water change. GDA and GSA has not shown back up yet. Plants still look like crap but that is going to be the case for a couple of weeks im sure.

Obviously it is easy to "over dose" lighting. But is this the sole cause of my plants dieng here? I would think that excess light would still allow your plants to thrive like before but that algae would eventually take over and then strangle the plants to death. Not the case here.

I will keep updating and hopefully get some decent testing equipment tomorrow.

Thanks to everyone for their opinions.

Over-lighting can kill plants through starvation ie. deficiencies, healthy plants store nutrients and if those stores cannot be replenished, the plants dwindle and algae gains a foothold.

 

[plantbrain]

I have been running half light and not adding k2so4 since my Sunday 50% water change. GDA and GSA has not shown back up yet. Plants still look like crap but that is going to be the case for a couple of weeks im sure.

Obviously it is easy to "over dose" lighting. But is this the sole cause of my plants dieng here? I would think that excess light would still allow your plants to thrive like before but that algae would eventually take over and then strangle the plants to death. Not the case here.

I will keep updating and hopefully get some decent testing equipment tomorrow.

Thanks to everyone for their opinions.

Once the algae have been beaten back, then you can increase slowly the lighting etc. Tweak the CO2 as you increrase the light, do this slow and methodically, do not rush with adjusting CO2.

Plants can grow and do pretty good with low light.
If you can borrow or rent a light a meter, buy and then resell later etc......then this would go a long way as well. It's not all about testing nutrients.

Nutrients are very easy once CO2 and light are mastered.
So is algae management/plant growth.

The species of fish I keep and like are highly sensitive to CO2, so rather than driving the system at high light, too many tanks and not enough time for that, and the fish issue, I chose less light, but not too little.

Folks can do this without a meter via trail and error but only if the CO2/nutrients are non limiting. 40-50 micromoles is about right for most along the bottom of the sediment over the entire area.

Getting CO2 right and with good wiggle room is key.

Algae: once it's beaten back, then your plants are doing better, then you can add more light, but also focus on CO2 when you do. Was the algae reduced due to the CO2 reduced demand of the plants? Or from less light?

Maybe a bit of both?
Hard to say.

If we look at higher light tanks with rich CO2, we do not have algae in many cases. So it's it the light alone?

No, we have falsified that.
Not that gives you any comfort, but we are not lying to you either, and the results show clearly you can have high light, plenty of fish etc that are healthy etc, and no algae........and plenty of nutrients.

What will hedge the bets the best is lower light in that range above, good careful CO2 adjustment and patience with CO2......good water changes/dosing thereafter, keep filters clean, good current etc.......trim plants often, remove algae, check and do water change if you see any issues etc.

Repeat.

Light is not going to change much, nor will nutrients if you stick to dosing/water changes/sediment sources as well.

This leaves CO2 as the main variable. Think about how to adjust it very slow and progressively.

I use a vernier caliper on my needle valve to adjust 1 tick at a time and then watch. 2-3 days later, if all is well, I'll add a bit more and so on......

Once plants look good, plant health is good, fish doing fine, no signs of stress........I leave it. If you rush it, then you risk gassing fish and not allowing the plants to rework their Carbon metabolism(this takes a week or so of recovery time).

I have temperamental tanks myself that are much harder to dial in also, other tanks....they just seem to be much easier to adjust the CO2. Current, filters, CO2 system? One of those, because the light, nutrients, sediment, fish, plants etc are the same and independent.

That's why it's good to have several tanks to compare to.
If I just had one good tank, then I'd wonder why I have no troubles.
Or one bad tank, I'd be a lot like many of the frustrated folks with algae.

But.........it'd have nothing to do with light/nutrients, water changes, sediment etc etc.......

Try slow progression with the CO2, algae schmalgae.......that can be beaten back and the plants will recover in due time. Watch fish, give the plants more time to bounce back before upping CO2.

I'm not lying to ya. Been there done this many times.


Regards,
Tom Barr