Caution! Extremely Opinionated Posting!

[WinstonCourt]

...where a majority of the population is Baptist and Republican.

Eeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

 

[Slappy*McFish]

That's another whole can-O-worms right there!

 

[platytudes]

Yup...anybody want to house swap with me?

 

[DeeDeeK]

If you are willing to make an extremely opinionated post, be ready for those that do not agree with your line of thinking.

There is no formula for stocking. You simply cannot have an objective formula try to find the solution for a subjective topic. It is even worse if you base the entire formula off of one species. That will NEVER work

I am ready for those who do not agree. Are you implying I am not? If that's the case, how so? I am certainly prepared to rebut postings criticizing my prior postings when I feel they misrepresent what I said, most especially when they are disagreements with things I never actually wrote. I am prepared to accept criticism and at least consider it and sometimes actually adopt or adapt my pov.

I agree with you about the stocking formula. I use it when considering small, active fish in small planted tanks. I also consider territoriality, need for space to cruise around in e.g. danios and many other things. As I have said, my postings in that regard were off-topic and I'd retract them if I could; I would hate to lead someone to stock their tank poorly. Honestly, I repent those postings - do I need to be corrected any further or is there something constructive anyone would care to add or perhaps start a thread regarding?

Look, I have often reacted to criticism negatively, tried to reverse the burn I've felt. I've also frequently tried to redirect the thread to a more constructive and reasonable discourse. I think I have also recanted my many mistakes and taken risks and not self-censored because of fear of ridicule or of ruffling feathers. It would be lovely if more people felt free to share their own personal views and techniques and asked questions of each other to try to understand without worrying about unreasonable and unfair responses. I would really enjoy, for example, a discussion about various shapes and sizes of aquariums and creative ways to arrange decor and flora. I have much to learn in that regard.

 

[DeeDeeK]

Your replies make more sense when you read correctly.
RB wrote "STocking parameters" that you misread and responded to as SHocking parameters". Such a mistake changes the entire context of what was said or meant.

We all make mistakes. Before you think you have been insulted, make sure you have read correctly and in the context meant.

Guilty as charged. Many misreadings have cluttered this thread and we ALL should try to be more careful. I apologize for one of my mistakes once again. Anybody else ready to 'fess up? Hmmmmm.......?

 

[Slappy*McFish]

Is it me or are too many folks taking this topic a bit too personally? We're talking about decorating an aquarium for crying out loud and I find this discord kind of ridiculous.
DeeDeeK never pointed out any one person's aquarium or ridiculed them in any way. She just stated her opinions on the subject and that is it.

 

[platytudes]

Yeah, I agree that this thread needs to die. Way too much negativity all around - a seemingly endless cycle of criticism, blame, misunderstanding. Maybe when/if you rewrite, there will be less offense/offensive taken/doled out and more constructive comments. One can only hope. Can't say it was all bad, though, as there were lots of good points brought up.

 

[RodInCALIFORNIA]

Oh the drama of it all........makes it quite a enjoyable read indeed.

 

[excuzzzeme]

Like I said earlier, in many ways I agree with Dee's ideology when it comes to fish and their environment. I also consider it to be an ever-evolving education. Sometimes there is no right or wrong other than to not have them, IMO.

The fish, their environment and health all have been instrumental to me in many ways beyond being a hobby. I guess for that angle, it changes the whole as compared to hobby only.

Misreading and comprehension errors are going to happen when you are not able to read body language or tone of reference. Effective communication is so much harder when typed. With few exceptions, I believe we do fairly well. The only time I see a real problem is when someone wishes to state an opinion as being factual. Without evidence of factual data, opinions should be just that: an opinion.

Everyone has their own innate set of algorithms they use to form an opinion. Getting to the destination is important, not how you got there. The health of the inhabitants is what matters above and beyond any other opinion; we all agree on that.

Close the thread due to some possibly zealous opinions? I don't think so. Denigration of another's opinion isn't productive. If an opinion can't be expressed without directing challenges, it is not a discussion. It shouldn't be necessary to resort to emotions when stating opinion. The OP conformed to the two major rules of a discussion initially. Those simple rules are: A) this is my opinion, and B) this is why. Replies should also conform to the same. It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree, it is an opinion and opinions are not facts.

Your opinion is just as valuable just leave the emotions out of it.

 

[DeeDeeK]

Please excuse another lengthy post BUT if you have been offended by things I've stated in my posts or even been just irritated, please give it a read. It is chock full of apologies, retractions, and admissions honestly meant for you. I want to further explore and post on what I had in mind is the main intention for the accursed first posting but swear not to carelessly toss around opinions even if they are meant theatrically or playfully without thought for those whose feelings I might hurt and I'll watch the tone and rhetoric, incomplete and off-topic ramblings, and try to make clear what are concepts, opinions, facts, and theories.

Platytudes' thoughtful critique helped me clarify my thoughts and provided a structure to hang them on so I quote a post of hers quite a bit and hope I'm still not too defensive

Ok, here's my take on this...in 500 words or less.

You made an opinionated post - mind you, you did post the "disclaimer" right on the subject line. It was more like a rough draft of an article (I think you even said it was such)

Actually I titled the initial posting "Caution! Extremely Opinionated Posting!" and it was more a sketching out of ideas and opinions than even a rough draft though I did say it was a very rough draft. My writing process on aquaria has been the posing online of ideas and theories of mine, getting shot down on some, corrected on some, learning new information, making mistakes (necessary to the learning process), and sometimes remaining convinced I am right about some things. Then I whip up a synthesis of it all into a rough draft, share it with certain aquarists who I really trust the knowledge and opinions of, and revise along their suggestions. I hope that it stirs up discussion and debate and stimulates some thread readers in some good way.

obviously many people think/thought you were trying to convince your audience to see things your way...that you meant to prove a point. However, your post is composed mostly of feelings, not facts. There are some generalization made - quite a few of them

Yes, I have stated that that posting is a failure in and of itself. I tried to present a point of view, persuasively, to try it out for size and see what people think. I think I know what people think now and I've apologized already for some generalizations I actually did make and rebutted many generalizations folks apparently inferred but which I did not actually make.

- and a considerable part of the post delves into some "touchy feely" concepts that not everyone is comfortable with. The rebuttal is, science. The science of aquariums is that fish don't get sick in ugly aquariums, in fact they can be quite healthy.

I have said a fine aquarium can be made even with the colorful and artificial elements I personally do not like. I said or meant to say fish get sick when overcrowded or when their welfare is neglected. Honestly, that's what I said!

Yeah, the touchy-feely stuff. Well, nobody has to agree with any of it or even like it. That's their personal taste, opinions, feelings, and beliefs. However, I was hoping to capture the interest of at least one or two people who may understand what I am espousing even if they didn't agree with any of it. Such people might give me valuable feedback and possibly get a little something from what I state. No work of writing is meant for or will appeal to everyone. Writing might be aimed at a small segment of people or even be like a longline at sea hoping to see if there's anything out there to catch at all. A message in a bottle if you will. So I'm interested in psychological, spiritual, and practical elements that can but not necessarily be a part of the aquarium keeping experience and how they relate to aesthetics. Sure, esoteric, touchy-feely, strange but definitely part of the world aquarium community. Iwagumi and Sanzon Iwagumi aquariums are good examples of this. Check out http://www.aquatic-eden.com/2007/02/iwagumi-and-sanzon-iwagumi-aquariums.html.

So a lot of people have told you "it doesn't matter to the fish if the aquarium is what you call ugly" - point taken.

Another thing about your article is that it is lengthy - what I called it in an earlier post was indulgent. Many people cannot understand and/or do not care to bother with reading it all (you even said you were not expecting a close read).

Indulgent? Maybe. I'll think about that, seriously. If they cannot understand perhaps they should say something on the order of "this doesn't make sense to me." If they don't read it at all, I doubt there's any reason they should post any comments on it. Anyway, the wordiness and perhaps pushy qualities stem from a great enthusiasm and love I feel for the hobby and my wish to share ideas and information. Please accept my apology for a socially awkward attempt to engage with the community and stir up some ideas for discussion.

No, no close read expected. The writing is a failure as I've said, because I was too flamboyant with my opinions and not clear enough about the actual topics I was concerned with. My bad, ok?

What they glean from it is your contempt for tacky aquariums and "monster fish" aquariums (remember that Aquaria Central is part of the Monster Fish Network, so is closely tied to MFK).

Again, I've admitted I had a wrong impression of monster fish keepers, explained how I got that impression, and retracted the statement and disowned that opinion. And I still haven't apologized for what I thought was a playfully over-the-top, flamboyant opinion re. bubbles, divers, colorful gravel, and plastic plants. Please, everyone, lower your hackles; it was a mistake to word it that way and I see how it could show contempt. What I have contempt for are unhealthy and negligent conditions for fish and what I see as the ignorance promoted by soulless chain pet stores in their marketing and offerings for the aquarium hobby. Tackiness can be fun, pretty, artistic. What it doesn't do is sicken fish. I hear that and have agreed with it and even made a weak statement to that effect in said original posting. Sorry, I'm sorry...so very sorry....

While you mention that this is an opinionated post, you don't say "these are only my opinions"...this article is more of a "don't do this, do this" which is why so many of the responses are negative and heated. Many people simply object to your tone, which they might find arrogant or haughty.

Well, since only one person wrote that initial post, and the post was titled "Warning Extremely Opinionated Post" or something like that, I assumed readers would understand a) that the post is largely opinion, and b) the opinions were those of the person who wrote the post and titled it with a warning about extreme opinions.

Haughty and arrogant: I've re-read it and agree with you. Once again, standing on its own, the post was a failure. I agree. It was a misjudged attempt at being colorful and flamboyant.

People in the "art scene" as you seem to be from, are often perceived as such outside of their own circles.

I am somewhat educated in the arts but am a complete outsider to any "art scene" though because of my unusual views am still perceived with disfavor frequently. I find dignity in trying to maintain my integrity while accepting useful criticism and being willing to change my position or even beliefs when faced with new facts and good reasoning OR extremely hurt feelings, which are quite important to us all.

I bet lots of people who have replied did not even read the subsequent posts. TLDR (too long, didn't read)

I bet so, too. If they didn't want to read the rest of the thread, why attribute to the thread things that were never said? I guess because I ticked them off with that very opinionated post I warned them about... another reason I think that post was a failure and am deeply reexamining it. Honest, I am! I've learned a ton from this thread and hope that at least in some small way it may have contributed something positive to someone somewhere. I hope it did no harm.

The bright side is, this is just the internet. This is just me but...what people write on here barely fazes me. I've got a thick skin when it comes to forums.

I'm learning to stop personalizing everything. If I make a mistake or get burned, I guess it's no real skin off my nose now, is it?

Not in person so much, I don't like being threatened or despised. I personally had a lot to learn as an atheist and liberal Miami girl who moved to "Horse Capital of the World" Ocala...where a majority of the population is Baptist and Republican.

As a queer person who came out and lived for years in the northern end of Palm Beach County, am already an oddball, and is a semi-buddhist atheist herself I learned thick skin in person too but for some reason feel so personally invested in what I write that I feel hurt and try to clarify, agree with, or reasonably disagree too much and fall down even doing that.

Thanks for your thoughtful critique - I know I disagreed with many points or tried to clarify them but I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of what you say and I hope you note that I actually have had my eyes opened a bit and come to agree with you on several important points. Again, thanks.