Censorship at AC

[captaincaveman9]

To borrow your own phrasing, the point is not so much that complaining makes no difference, but that when you feel afraid to complain, something isn't...right.


It quite frankly, saddens me slightly (ever so slightly) that my community is afraid to use proper names of corporations when making complaints, no matter how hopeless their complaints may be, no matter how poor their own fishkeeping skills may be.

Even if they are blanket generalizations, even if they are poorly written and unhelpful...usually, people are not afraid to rant for fear of being sued. God help us if we couldn't complain about Windows operating systems, or Fox news, or Outback steakhouse, or whatever else we wanted to frivolously complain about, without using proper names. The internet would be unreadable!

The problem I have with the rants, they are usually generalizations about an entire chain and most of the times the ranter has done NOTHING but post on the internet to gripe about something they don't have much information about at all. Just walking into a LFS and seeing a lot of dead fish in one visit it not a general indication of how an entire chain is. And there are ways to politely mention a stores name and reasons not to visit a location without going on a mindless rant. I have been to many chain stores that do it right.

As far as fear of being sued, that's what you get when one of the largest industries and most profitable is Legal. I fully support the mods and site owner for their position on threads and posts that could be liable. If the people starting the threads were to approach the problems with the store in a different manner, like talking to staff, then the manager, then the district manager or the corporate office first, and then start a thread saying something like " Could I have people help me writing the super aquarium fish super store corporation to let them know my concerns as a customer shopping at their stores and the general poor conditions...." the people wanting to rant would do the fish at the store a better service than just going off about "the tanks look gross, and lots of fish are dead". To many people want to dry and complain without actually addressing the people responsible.

 

[platytudes]

One last comment, before I retire from posting in this thread.

To all the people saying, "talk to a manager about it"...when it comes right down to it, talking to a manager means complaining about the handful of people running the fish department. Most of us don't feel so comfortable doing that, suggesting in a roundabout way that they fire people.

The problem with chain pet stores is that their policy is to hire a few people to take care of the fish department, pay them minimum wage, and it doesn't matter whether they know or like fish or not. This is the opposite of people in an LFS, who most of the time are working there because of their love of fish. I know a few people online who work at an LFS, in spite of the low pay, solely because buying equipment at cost helps them afford their hobby!

As I mentioned before in another [butchered] thread, chain pet stores do not have a way to quarantine new fish or treat sick fish, except in the display tank, in their shared water system...which seems minimally effective.

Local fish stores and chain pet stores run things very differently. Which is why many magazines and books recommend buying fish from places that sell exclusively fish, and not other pets. This, IMO, is the best advice, because it is extremely hit or miss with chain pet stores...

Anyone with intelligence can see that when a pet store has a bad fish department, the reason it is the way it is is that they:

a) have people running it who don't know what they're doing (they might not care either, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt)

b) import fish without quarantine, and more importantly...

c) treat sick fish in the display, in a shared water system, which means that no tank can be isolated for treatment

There is nothing that can be done about B or C, it is the way it is, and A seems unlikely to change because you complained (and think about it, if it did change, it's because you got someone fired!)

 

[Piranha86]

Post from this thread:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2521789&posted=1#post2521789

I am so appauled at the conditions that *chain store name removed* keeps thier fish. Everytime someone purchases a fish from there they are not "buying" it they are "saving" it. Most of the fish there have diseases or parasites and everytime I go into the store I want to buy everyfish because i know they will die if not bought. I was just wondering if anyone actually has an ok *chain store name removed* in their area. I am also wondering how long everyone quarentines thier fish from *chain store name removed*, I am thinking about saving a few Emerald Catfish to add to my school.

I don't really follow about removing the name. It's not like they're on this site or anything, and if they are, they should see this and do some serious reconsidering about treatment of their fish. I think if you feel strongly enough to complain about it on the forum, you should warn us about the store. I have had some bad experiences with this type of thing, including driving 1 1/2 hours to go to a new LFS to find 5 racks of sick guppies, mollies, and other run-of-the-mill fish for hideously expensive prices. I would have been happier if I would have known that it was bad. I think the name of the store was Something's Fishy or something. It's in Hampstead, MD. The guy was pretty nice, and maybe they were just cycling the tanks or something, but I was very unimpressed.

It's free speech and opinion. No *reasonable* judge (and I understand there is unreasonable judges) would ever let anything like that of the website Inka provided happen. I believe we have the right to say what we want, and it's not really libel or whatever they're worried about. Libel has to be false. If you're not lying, then it's not illegal. I want to be warned about a bad LFS. There is a constitutional amendment you might have heard of, it's called the first amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

[captaincaveman9]

One last comment, before I retire from posting in this thread.

To all the people saying, "talk to a manager about it"...when it comes right down to it, talking to a manager means complaining about the handful of people running the fish department. Most of us don't feel so comfortable doing that, suggesting in a roundabout way that they fire people.

The problem with chain pet stores is that their policy is to hire a few people to take care of the fish department, pay them minimum wage, and it doesn't matter whether they know or like fish or not. This is the opposite of people in an LFS, who most of the time are working there because of their love of fish. I know a few people online who work at an LFS, in spite of the low pay, solely because buying equipment at cost helps them afford their hobby!

As I mentioned before in another [butchered] thread, chain pet stores do not have a way to quarantine new fish or treat sick fish, except in the display tank, in their shared water system...which seems minimally effective.

Local fish stores and chain pet stores run things very differently. Which is why many magazines and books recommend buying fish from places that sell exclusively fish, and not other pets. This, IMO, is the best advice, because it is extremely hit or miss with chain pet stores...

Anyone with intelligence can see that when a pet store has a bad fish department, the reason it is the way it is is that they:

a) have people running it who don't know what they're doing (they might not care either, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt)

b) import fish without quarantine, and more importantly...

c) treat sick fish in the display, in a shared water system, which means that no tank can be isolated for treatment

There is nothing that can be done about B or C, it is the way it is, and A seems unlikely to change because you complained (and think about it, if it did change, it's because you got someone fired!)

So, you are pretty much saying, it's pointless to complain to the manager of the store because you see something that disturbs you so much that you want to cost the store business, but you don't want to get people fired by talking to the manager, so you get them fired anyway by decreasing the sales of the store, and never did anything to try to help the conditions of the tanks. I'm not even getting into illness, just tank conditions and fish comparability in the display tanks.

 

[blue2fyre]

It's free speech and opinion. No *reasonable* judge (and I understand there is unreasonable judges) would ever let anything like that of the website Inka provided happen. I believe we have the right to say what we want, and it's not really libel or whatever they're worried about. Libel has to be false. If you're not lying, then it's not illegal. I want to be warned about a bad LFS. There is a constitutional amendment you might have heard of, it's called the first amendment.

But that's how the system works. It doesn't matter if it's a reasonable judge or who is right. What matters is who has the most money. A large corporation can afford frivolous lawsuits that do nothing but drain the money of the other party. Seriously it happens all the time.

Also this is a forum where they have the right to set rules that you must follow.

 

[excuzzzeme]

For those of us with a brain:






For those without, don't worry if you don't get the point. It probably makes too much sense for you to grasp.

 

[Ramphonic]

 

[platytudes]

So, you are pretty much saying, it's pointless to complain to the manager of the store because you see something that disturbs you so much that you want to cost the store business, but you don't want to get people fired by talking to the manager, so you get them fired anyway by decreasing the sales of the store, and never did anything to try to help the conditions of the tanks. I'm not even getting into illness, just tank conditions and fish comparability in the display tanks.

No, that's not what I mean at all.

What I mean is that at chain pet stores, they hire people with no fishkeeping experience, pay them the legal minimum, give them a modicum of training and set them loose. If I complain to the manager that their tanks look awful, are full of dead and sick fish, the best that I can expect is that they will fire the current crop of minimum wage fish department workers, and hire a new bunch. How will that help?

It's possible that in this new bunch of employees, someone will know what they are doing and will do a good job, but it's also very possible that this WON'T happen, and conditions will be the same as before...only there will be a few more unemployed people.

I really don't give a hoot about costing the store business, but I do care about costing people their jobs! Besides, there is so much turnover at these stores anyway, why should I try to get people fired?

IMO, there is no point in complaining to a store manager at a chain store. It is worthwhile to complain to the corporation's HQ to change their practices...I have done that before and gotten no [human] response.

 

[platytudes]

Jeff, I know what you mean, but this thread has gotten the most views in the shortest amount of time of any thread I've ever posted, so...opcorn:

I just regret that now so many people seem to think I'm a jerk, when I totally understand the whole "when in Rome" aspect of this, and willingly abide by the rules AC has set. I don't propose that they change anything, if it ain't broke don't fix it! However, I do find the topic of intellectual freedom fascinating...

Anyway, I am leaving now, promise! :evil_lol: If anyone wants to converse further, feel free to PM me.

 

[Inka4040]

Intellectual freedom is great, and obviously something that's hard to argue against, but the fact is, in this case, you are not the only who can suffer the consequences of your words. When you're paying to host a site that you let members use free of cost, you will be more than welcome to hold ideals of intellectual freedom more important than potential liability issues stemming from words and opinions that are not necessarily your own.

It's free speech and opinion. No *reasonable* judge (and I understand there is unreasonable judges) would ever let anything like that of the website Inka provided happen. I believe we have the right to say what we want, and it's not really libel or whatever they're worried about. Libel has to be false. If you're not lying, then it's not illegal. I want to be warned about a bad LFS. There is a constitutional amendment you might have heard of, it's called the first amendment.

How many times does it need to be said before people stop bringing up this nonsense... 1) This is an international site. The US constitution has no bearing. 2) This is a privately owned site, part of your user agreement involves obeying all rules and regulations. You signed away your "right" to free speech when you agreed to the terms of service.

In any case, did you even read the linked article? The whole point is that it doesn't matter whether you're in the right or wrong. They can effectively penalize you monetarily just by bringing the case to court. Why should Li even have to be bothered with the possibility of going through any of that BS just so people can feel free to whine about perceived injustices perpetuated by big box stores?