Chilodonella

[sundragon]

I have a neon tetra that exhibits the following symptoms:

1. Changed heavy breathing
2. Excessive secretion of mucus that makes the skin of the fish look cloudy -loss of color.
3. Clamped fins, loss of appetite and scratching against aquarium decoration.
4. The tetra didn't come up for food and was hiding under plants.

The below is the only thing that I haven't been able to confirm is a symptom of Chilodonella - Maybe another protozoan?

The only thing that was different is that it has a small white nodule sticking out of it's side at most 1mm in size. It is only visible if you look at the tetra head on.


I will try to get a picture - It hides and there are a lot of plants and undergrowth.

I highly suspect Chilodenella - I purchased a few plants recently - otherwise not sure how it could be transferred.

The other fish seem okay - no symptoms I can see.

I treated the water with Quick Cure Ich - Malachite Green/Formalin (per the directions on the bottle for Tetra - 1/2 normal dose)

***********************************************
Now here's the rest per the requirements of this forum...

"Basic" Questions

1. What is the size of your tank?


30G X-high


2. What are your water parameters? State the brand of test kit used.


Ammonia=0
Nitrite=0
Nitrate=15
pH=6.8
KH=4 degrees
API test kit

3. Is your aquarium set up freshwater or brackish water?


Fresh, aquarium salt is added when water is changed - per instructions on box.

4. How long the aquarium has been set up?


10 Months

5. What fish do you have? How many are in your tank? How big are they? How long have you had them?


4 Angels (varying from 9 - 2 months)
2 Clown loaches (9 months)
10 Neon Tetras (3-4 months)
1 Hillstream loach (7 months)
2 Otos (3-4 months)


6. Were the fish placed under quarantine period (minus the first batch from the point wherein the tank is ready to accommodate the inhabitants)?


No - If this is a protozoan - I need to treat the entire tank...

7. What temperature is the tank water currently?


80 Degrees


8. Are there live plants in the aquarium?


Lots of live plants, growing with injected CO2.


9. What filter are you using? State brand, maintenance routine and power capacity.


Aquaclear 50 (1 month)
Foam/Seachem Purigen 100g sack/bio (I removed the Purigen before adding malachite green/formalin)

10. Any other equipment used (aside from heater and filter which are two very important components of the tank)?


300W heater.


11. Does your aquarium receive natural sunlight at any given part of the day? What is your lighting schedule (assuming you do not rely on sunlight for our viewing pleasure)?


approx. 30 min a day on one corner, daily 9 hours with a timer.

12. When did you perform your last water change and how much water was changed? How often do you change your water? Do you vacuum the substrate?


7 days ago, I do it weekly, replacing 30% of the water, vacuuming the surface of the substrate.

13. What foods do you provide your fish? What is the feeding schedule?


2x day

AM feeding: Frozen bloodworms.
PM Feeding: a mixture of the following: Tetramin flakes, crisps, tropical granules, HBH super soft krill pellets.

14. What unusual signs have you observed in your fish?


All fish exhibit "normal behavior" for their species - save the affected tetra - please see above.

15. Have you treated your fish ahead of diagnosis? If so, what treatments did you use? State your reasons for planning ahead of proper diagnosis.


Quickcure Ich - Malachite Green/Formalin. Today is the first dose of 1 drop per 2 gallons. I will repeat treatment for the next 2 days with a large (50%) water change. Please see above for reasoning.

 

[sundragon]

One more thing to share - This site rocks when you're trying to figure out what's wrong with your favorite pet: http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/diseases.html

 

[mel_20_20]

Hello, sundragon, I'm sorry you're having this difficulty. I saw this thread and it reminded me of a thread by Biohazard, quite some time ago. I went to my files and found some pics of her fish that we all pretty much decided had either chilodonella or glosatella, which cause symptoms you describe. Here's some pics for comparison:









This is very advanced, and in fact in the last two pics the fish is deceased.

Many people were involved and trying to help, and she got a lot of really good advice, but I think a good summary was provided by one our members that we don't see very often on AC anymore, but he was always very helpful in the disease and illness forum.

Here's a link to the page on Biohazars thread where Dr. Vader AKA Dr. No checked in on the thread, though it was too late for poor Biohazards fish by the time the diagnosis was figured out. I hope this helps.

Here are links to a couple of pages with quick info, so you don't have to read through the whole thing, though if you have time it is a very interesting, if sad, thread, and I found it helpful.


http://www.aquariacentral.com/forum...Mystery-Diesease-Returns-Help-NEEDED!!!/page4



http://www.aquariacentral.com/forum...Mystery-Diesease-Returns-Help-NEEDED!!!/page5

I don't know, for a certaintiy, if this is the illness you are seeing, but it sounds enough like it that I thought you could at least consider the photos for comparison to see if this looks significantly like the signs and symptoms in your sick fish.

If you could get some photos of your fish to post on this thread I'm sure it would be very helpful. It's very hard to diagnose fish even with photos, often, but it could help.

I hope others can chime in on this. I don't get on here as often as I like and may not be able to check back on your situation in a timely manner, but I'm sure there will be others that will try to help, too.

Best wishes for you and your poor little sick guy or girl. I truly hope things get better for you.

 

[sundragon]

Mel, you are amazing! Thank you - I couldn't find much when I was searching - I missed Biohazard's thread all together.

It didn't look as bad as this - there was discoloration, and maybe one (I'm not sure what) sticking out of the side of the fish that was visible only when looking at it head on. It was breathing very fast compared to the other neons and it didn't come out to feed - that's what made me take a longer look at it. I almost wanted to call it Neon Tetra Disease or False Neon Tetra, but in my experience - it killed all the tetra in 2-3 days. The rest of them seem fine this morning as do the other fish in the tank.

I found it dead but untouched this morning. Slightly discolored - I couldn't find the protruding object, and the skin seemed a little hazy, but nothing out of the norm for a dead fish - There was a slight concentration of green color (malachite green maybe?) right near it's gills- I should have taken a photo but in examining the fish there was nothing that stood out. I will monitor them for the next few days.

The loaches and tetra seem to be fine regarding the Malachite Green/Formalin dose (1/2 that of regular dose) - I did a 30% water change this morning and gave the second dose. I will repeat the dose tomorrow - for three consecutive doses - wait 24 hours then replace the Seachem Prime in the filter and do another water change.

It's just weird - When I was younger - the diseases were really easy to ID - Ich - white spots everywhere - fungus, etc. Now it seems like a mystery every time a fish gets sick

Hello, sundragon, I'm sorry you're having this difficulty. I saw this thread and it reminded me of a thread by Biohazard, quite some time ago. I went to my files and found some pics of her fish that we all pretty much decided had either chilodonella or glosatella, which cause symptoms you describe. Here's some pics for comparison:

*** Cut to save space******

Best wishes for you and your poor little sick guy or girl. I truly hope things get better for you.

 

[Cerianthus]

.
It didn't look as bad as this - there was discoloration, and maybe one (I'm not sure what) sticking out of the side of the fish that was visible only when looking at it head on. It was breathing very fast compared to the other neons and it didn't come out to feed - that's what made me take a longer look at it. I almost wanted to call it Neon Tetra Disease or False Neon Tetra, but in my experience - it killed all the tetra in 2-3 days. The rest of them seem fine this morning as do the other fish in the tank.
Cant say for sure what it is but have a good feeling Quick Cure may helped/ and will assist in controlling pathogens involved.:

I found it dead but untouched this morning. Slightly discolored - I couldn't find the protruding object, and the skin seemed a little hazy, but nothing out of the norm for a dead fish - There was a slight concentration of green color (malachite green maybe?) right near it's gills- I should have taken a photo but in examining the fish there was nothing that stood out. I will monitor them for the next few days.

The loaches and tetra seem to be fine regarding the Malachite Green/Formalin dose (1/2 that of regular dose) - I did a 30% water change this morning and gave the second dose. I will repeat the dose tomorrow - for three consecutive doses - wait 24 hours then replace the Seachem Prime in the filter and do another water change.

Although sad that fish died but glad to hear that 1/2 dose approach was taken, not for the tetras on my part but for CL as I observed discomforts displayed by CL to Quick Cure from time to time long long time ago. Pehraps it was due to bit higher [form]/% in Quick Cure than Formalite-I, I achieved better results with the latter which unfortunately is discontinued for good. Still would be cautious when administering MG in any tanks and dont forget to vent the room well when using Form med as well as to make sure livestocks dont have any notciceable open would/cuts.

Wondering how plants will react to Quick Cure at half dosage in few days/week as I personally never would have exposed my well established plants to such med???

It's just weird - When I was younger - the diseases were really easy to ID - Ich - white spots everywhere - fungus, etc. Now it seems like a mystery every time a fish gets sick
Perhaps it is due to increased info/knowledge :thumbsup: compared to when most would have simply/easily dismissed such as common Ich/Fungus before as stated.
And keep in mind that there a lot more to it than one may think. Reading books is important but w/o actual experiences (similar to what youre experiencing but too bad no microscope avail to confirm some), it may not be worth much but better than not reading at all as at least reading can lead to right direction...

Hope all are well and goes well!

 

[mel_20_20]

I just had to come check to see how things are going. I'm so sorry for your loss of the one, but I'm so glad all your fish don't look like Bio's fish did; if this is chilodonella or glosatella you may have caught this in time.

Rapid and distressed breathing can definitely be symptoms of either of those parasitic infestations, as Dr. No mentioned in Biohazard's thread. Often, the fish are seriously affected in the gills before other more obvious signs are present. Still, no way to know for an absolute certainty, as Cerianthus mentions -a microscope would be most helpful at times like these.

Keep up the good work, you are doing your best taking care of them. I so hope your efforts will be rewarded with a speedy recovery for your sweet and beautiful little fish.

 

[Cerianthus]

One more thing to share - This site rocks when you're trying to figure out what's wrong with your favorite pet: http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/diseases.html

I just happened to stumble on stickies in this section. Although I just briefly skimmed thru it but If Lupin took such time and efforts to create these useful threads, members should utilize such info provided, not that any didnt, as it covers pretty much most common diseases and one can easily render their own answers/possibilities. Keep in mind that same/similar general symptoms can be displayed by many different diseases. So read thoroughly!

 

[sundragon]

Hey Mel - So far none of the rest are acting differently - one of the clowns was flashing a few times today right after feeding - I've seen it swimming around and it doesn't look any different so I think I'm just being sensitive :eek3: I'll keep an eye out.

Third dose of Malachite Green, and Formalin today. Tomorrow will be a water change.

The tetra was breathing about twice or more the rate of the others...

I will have to invest in a microscope - Craigslist here I come. I hope this stopped it before I lose any more.

I just had to come check to see how things are going. I'm so sorry for your loss of the one, but I'm so glad all your fish don't look like Bio's fish did; if this is chilodonella or glosatella you may have caught this in time.

Rapid and distressed breathing can definitely be symptoms of either of those parasitic infestations, as Dr. No mentioned in Biohazard's thread. Often, the fish are seriously affected in the gills before other more obvious signs are present. Still, no way to know for an absolute certainty, as Cerianthus mentions -a microscope would be most helpful at times like these.

Keep up the good work, you are doing your best taking care of them. I so hope your efforts will be rewarded with a speedy recovery for your sweet and beautiful little fish.

 

[sundragon]

Hey Cerianthus

I hope you're right about Quick Cure!

From what I read Malachite Green is not an antibiotic. Formalin is bacteriostatic - it will at worst slow down the biological filter - This pathogen had been introduced to the whole tank and I did not see alternative.

The plants are fine - the new crypt (so pretty) hasn't melted so I think things are okay. They have never responded negatively to any medication I've had to use, including salt (which I use regularly).

While I appreciate your point of view - You bring up so many good points :thm: I honestly think people are averse to using medication in hopes a "natural fix" will cure things - all antibiotics are natural in origin... It would be the same as having a child that has an infected ear and telling the doctor "no, I'll not give him/her antibiotics, I'll use Echinacea because it's natural..."

I'm old fashioned - Use what is necessary and does the best job.
For example: In my experience both Pimafix, Melafix have done nothing the few times I've used them - other than smell awful :silly:
My friend who breeds Angels has had no luck with them either - He's always had to resort to a serious medication and the time it took to see if the "natural" treatment works gave the pathogen enough time to kill the fish and infect others... They are now used in addition to a known treatment - Never again as the first line of defense.

This may cause other issues - but I consider the consequences whenever I add something to my tank I hope my 3+ month saga of treating the Angel proves this, haha... what we do for our pets

I wish I had your patience I stopped using microscopes in Micro Biology

I've used the stickies first each time I've tried to diagnose. They are helpful tools when trying to confirm the pathogen - but ultimately I used the link I provided because it was clear and easy to follow. That's why I added it because it may help someone else. There need to be images added to the stickies - there weren't any for many of the diseases - which is why I looked elsewhere for more information.

Hope all are well and goes well!

 

[mel_20_20]

It is good that you're doing the half dose in view of the sensitive fish, though if there is a parasitic infestation of either Chilodonella or Glosatella it can take up to 10 days to cure. Watch carefully for excessive slime production. Get photos for us, if you do see that.

I remember in Bio's thread the fish would get better, then get worse, then get better again, which we attributed to her use of salt. We pretty much concluded that the salt had somewhat of an inhibitory effect, but did not eradicate the parasite and so the fish eventually succumbed.

The Quick Cure may be doing the job, hopefully and that's why you aren't seeing more blatant signs, i.e., excessive slime hanging off in sheets and strings.

Having said all that, there's still no way to say that this is absolutely what is going on, but the others are staying steady so hopefully the diagnosis is correct and the treatment is working. The best you can do is just keep watching for any other signs, symptoms, or behavioral changes that can point to other possiblilties.

Do monitor you water carefully and keep the parameters perfect; this can only help your guys as they fight whatever this is. Keep up the good work and keep us posted, we are all pulling for you.