Chloramine Neutralization?

rbishop said:
nope, just use Prime..
Click to expand...

Prime seems to be sodium bisulfite and/or sodium metabisulfite, perhaps sodium thiosulfite also ... the MSDS is rather vague on what sulfites are used. So, in the neutralizing of chloramines sulfuric acid is produced--I don't consider this "bad", some PH reducing products use sulfuric acid ...

However, this URL (page 24), under Other Reducing Agents, states that ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) is the preferred method when the water so treated is released into sensitive aquatic habitats ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=nB...hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result


Regards,
JS
 
I've read that extended exposure time to carbon works as well.
 
The question is, what, if any, concentration of ascorbic acid in water has a negative effect on fish.

Treating water to be released into an existing ecosystem is different because the ascorbic acid will be further diluted by the existing chlorine and chloramine free water. If you are releasing treated water in to a river or pond, the concentration of ascorbic acid becomes neglible nearly instantly. However, in an aquarium, you are not further diluting the vitamin C. You are replacing 50% of the water with the new aqueous ascorbic acid. Assuming the ascorbic acid isn't removed by other means, after a few water changes, you'll begin to maintain a constant level in the tank....and undiluted level.

Again, it may not cause any issues, but the paper doesn't completely apply since it's based on the assumption that the existing aquatic environment will have cloramine-free water to then dilute the treated water.

It's an interesting discussion, but so far there doesn't appear to be any research into how it would effect an aquarium. Without proper analytical testing, I wouldn't trust it in my tank. A crude method would be to test this method in a tank with some cheap feeder fish. Using this method, you would need to cheap the tank existing for a few years, in order to observe any potential chronic effects. Acute effects could be seen quickly, but it if you start shaving months or years off the life of your fish, it would be a problem.

Ideally, testing would start with feeder fish, and work it's way up. In order for this to be an effective DIY tool for the hobby aquarist, you would want to be comfortable that it wouldn't effect more delicate fish, like SA cichlids and Discus.
 
jmhart said:
The question is, what, if any, concentration of ascorbic acid in water has a negative effect on fish.

Treating water to be released into an existing ecosystem is different because the ascorbic acid will be further diluted by the existing chlorine and chloramine free water. If you are releasing treated water in to a river or pond, the concentration of ascorbic acid becomes neglible nearly instantly. However, in an aquarium, you are not further diluting the vitamin C. You are replacing 50% of the water with the new aqueous ascorbic acid. Assuming the ascorbic acid isn't removed by other means, after a few water changes, you'll begin to maintain a constant level in the tank....and undiluted level.

Again, it may not cause any issues, but the paper doesn't completely apply since it's based on the assumption that the existing aquatic environment will have cloramine-free water to then dilute the treated water.

It's an interesting discussion, but so far there doesn't appear to be any research into how it would effect an aquarium. Without proper analytical testing, I wouldn't trust it in my tank. A crude method would be to test this method in a tank with some cheap feeder fish. Using this method, you would need to cheap the tank existing for a few years, in order to observe any potential chronic effects. Acute effects could be seen quickly, but it if you start shaving months or years off the life of your fish, it would be a problem.

Ideally, testing would start with feeder fish, and work it's way up. In order for this to be an effective DIY tool for the hobby aquarist, you would want to be comfortable that it wouldn't effect more delicate fish, like SA cichlids and Discus.
Click to expand...

Jmhart:

I like your style, you express a good mind with your text ... the page I mentioned actually states a 2.5:1 ratio of ascorbic acid to chloramine to ratio will enact complete neutralization (by weight, seems implied.) I am researching the maximum amount of chloramine which can be added to drinking water and see if the addition of enough ascorbic acid to neutralize this maximum would be significant to warrent consideration. If not, then work out a stock solution which can me added to water with confidence--comments/suggestions/recomendations to this would be greatly appreciated.

I believe mega-doses of ascorbic acid are not considered toxic. I think you would burn your mouth/throat (from the acid) with a dose large enough to be toxic--comments welcomed here. The wife, when taking a holistic cure, once consumed 5 grams (5000 milligrams) a day for a couple of weeks ...

I think the manufactures of chloramine neutralizers go, in general, for the cheapest route, ascorbic acid is, most likely, the most expensive (but cheap even for owners of large aquariums.) Currently, I can purchase 1 ounce, ~29g, from the health food store for around $4 usd--this would make a LOT of stock solution.

But like I say, your input, cautions, thoughts, points-to-consider, etc. are GREATLY appreciated here, keep up the good work man! :)

DISCLAIMER:
As I have given warning, I am willing to experiment on my tanks of feeder guppies. Anyone wishing to follow me into uncharted territory should do so with caution and only their wits to protect them, or not at all ...

Regards,
JS
 
OK, I found this:

USA
According to American guidelines by EPA, drinking water that is treated with chloramines can contain a maximum amount of 4 mg/L Cl2. (National Primary Drinking Water Regulations EPA, 2002)

From here:
http://www.lenntech.com/water-disinfection/disinfectants-chloramines.htm

So, at a max of 4mg per liter of water, it takes 10mg of ascorbic acid to neutralize all of the chloramine which can be present in one liter of water. A 10g aquarium holds 37.836 liters. So, 10mg X 37.836 liters = 378.36mg of ascorbic acid. So, we could just toss in 4 100mg ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) tabs into a 10g aquarium, or just toss in one 500mg tab, or cut a 1000mg in half and toss a half in, or measure out 378.36 mg of ascorbic acid powder/crystals and toss them in. Of course, the tabs should be crushed and mixed in well (the powder/crystals also mixed well.)

According to the data I have found, it only takes seconds for ascorbic acid to neutralize the chloramine(s.) So heck, let it sit a minute!

A stock solution could be made of 4g (4000mg) ascorbic acid in 100ml of water and 10ml added to the 10g aquarium (400mg of ascorbic acid.) Or, 1ml of this stock solution per gallon of water ... just in case an "accident" happened at the water treatment plant and the chloramine level is above max, you are covered.

I think this should fall well within a safe level for all fish, comment appreciated, of course ...

Regards,
JS


 
JohnSmith said:
OK, I found this:

USA
According to American guidelines by EPA, drinking water that is treated with chloramines can contain a maximum amount of 4 mg/L Cl2. (National Primary Drinking Water Regulations EPA, 2002)

From here:
http://www.lenntech.com/water-disinfection/disinfectants-chloramines.htm

So, at a max of 4mg per liter of water, it takes 10mg of ascorbic acid to neutralize all of the chloramine which can be present in one liter of water. A 10g aquarium holds 37.836 liters. So, 10mg X 37.836 liters = 378.36mg of ascorbic acid. So, we could just toss in 4 100mg ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) tabs into a 10g aquarium, or just toss in one 500mg tab, or cut a 1000mg in half and toss a half in, or measure out 378.36 mg of ascorbic acid powder/crystals and toss them in. Of course, the tabs should be crushed and mixed in well (the powder/crystals also mixed well.)

According to the data I have found, it only takes seconds for ascorbic acid to neutralize the chloramine(s.) So heck, let it sit a minute!

A stock solution could be made of 4g (4000mg) ascorbic acid in 100ml of water and 10ml added to the 10g aquarium (400mg of ascorbic acid.) Or, 1ml of this stock solution per gallon of water ... just in case an "accident" happened at the water treatment plant and the chloramine level is above max, you are covered.

I think this should fall well within a safe level for all fish, comment appreciated, of course ...

Regards,
JS
Click to expand...


I agree with everything you said, except the blue. Requires testing. However, as a first hypothesis, I think you're on the right track. It seems like that dose shouldn't harm fish or plants.
 
DAVIDFBT said:
IMO, Prime is better. :)
Click to expand...

Yes, but in comparing ones' opinion to scientific fact, it pales ... ascorbic acid is the chosen method when the treated water is going to be released in sensitive aquatic environments. (The "tone" of the papers I have accessed seem actually to be referencing environments of endangered species of aquatic wildlife--although that is not directly stated. I even consider my guppy feeder tanks that important! :))

I am sure the ingredients of Prime can be purchased for less. If one were treating ponds, it might be wise to balance ones' pocketbook against minimum results ... however, the cost of this top notch method is only $4 usd dollars to treat 700+ US gallons of water.

Perhaps a cheaper source of ascorbic acid could be found, as opposed to a health food store. The 99 cent store here has 100, 100mg tabs for 99 cents. Tax will raise the price to $1.07. This would allow you to neutralize 250+ gallons for $1.07.

Regards,
JS
 
jmhart said:
I agree with everything you said, except the blue. Requires testing. However, as a first hypothesis, I think you're on the right track. It seems like that dose shouldn't harm fish or plants.
Click to expand...

Jmhart:

This:

"Test Results: In the first experiment at natural pH the LC50 for L-Ascorbic Acid was 1,020mg/l. There were no deaths at 800mg/l and 10/10 at 1,200mg/l. In the second experiment at pH 7.5 ± 0.5 there were no deaths at 1,000mg/l."

From here:

http://www.chem.unep.ch/irptc/sids/OECDSIDS/50817.htm

You will note, this is Rainbow Trout, an particularly environmentally sensitive species. And, 1,100mg is magnitudes higher than is being proposed as effective. Indeed, there were NO deaths when the amount of ascorbic acid was 800mg per liter--that is twice the amount we would be using to treat 37+ liters! Or, a safe amount is 37x (thirty-seven times) what we will be using ...

I was thinking, there is a carbon component in the ascorbic acid which should eventually become available to any plants in the aquarium. This leads me to suspect enhanced plant growth also ...

All-in-all, I am suspecting to find a win-win situation from my use of ascorbic acid ...

Regards,
JS
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
AquariaCentral.com
Top Bottom