Chondrococcus columnaris... Mouth Fungus Advice?

Hypatia

Hypatia

AC Members
May 1, 2006
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Okay, I hate to post this because it really seems like one of those questions that people who don't read the FAQs and articles available ask, but....

What I thought was ick, seems to actually be Mouth Fungus. I have never had this in an aquarium before, so of course I started to get educated. I read the illness and treatment article here, and googled Mouth Fungus, Cotton Mouth, and Chondrococcus columnaris until I just couldn't read that same just kill your fish article one more bloody time (if you don't know what I am talking about, go here I don't know who originally authored it, but it has been reproduced ALL over the web). But even after all this; I am left with a lot of questions.

1. Will salt help with this gram-negative bacterial infection or not?
There is a lot of disagreement on this; it seems, in what I read. So if you say it does, why do you say it does?

2. Should I treat the whole tank with antibiotics given that it is listed on many sites as contagious?

3. If I do treat the whole tank with antibiotics will this hurt my pakastani/yo-yo loaches, baby red tailed shark, or Ottos (I do not have any other tanks to move them to)? Will salt? The other fish are tetras, are they more sensitive to these meds like they are to Quick Cure (formulin, ect.)?

4. Will antibiotics, or whatever other treatment you may recommend, harm my bio-filtration... this seems like a big problem to me given that poor water quality is a primary culprit in fish disease (the diamond showing symptoms is a new addition to the tank... about two weeks)?

5. Some sites say that formalin and marchicite green will help, but aren't those parasite and fungal treatments? Will they help?

Just as info:
I do 25% water changes every three to four weeks. I was about to do one anyway, but have held off until I know more about what is the best treatment plan.
I test regularly and all parameters have been good. I have added some new fish (diamond tetras) in the past few weeks, so ammonia might have had a bitty spike, but I would say not more than .25, because I have been testing every other day or so and not noticed any spikes at all. Ph is about 7.4 and the water is soft.
 
Whaoo! The fish that is showing signs of mouth fungus (white around the mouth and on one fin), was cornered by another tetra at the bottom of the tank. I have had a terrible time catching any mid sized tetras in my heavily planted and lanscaped tank, so I took the oppertunity to catch it just in case a hospital tank was in order.

Well, I just checked in to her makeshift hosptial tank to make sure she was doing okay.... and she has eggs! The other fish was "cornering" her because they were SPAWNNING! Ive never had fish spawn in my tank before.. livebearers sure, but no egg layer reproduction. I just thought the other fish had her trapped was because she was sick.. I have seen that before. So, I am guessing that the eggs are infertile since the other fish wasn't there to fertilize them, right? Is there anything I can do at this point to save them? I am guessing not, but I thought I'd ask.
 
Hypatia said:
What I thought was ick, seems to actually be Mouth Fungus. I have never had this in an aquarium before, so of course I started to get educated. I read the illness and treatment article here, and googled Mouth Fungus, Cotton Mouth, and Chondrococcus columnaris until I just couldn't read that same just kill your fish article one more bloody time (if you don't know what I am talking about, go here I don't know who originally authored it, but it has been reproduced ALL over the web).
Click to expand...
You know, that is the first time I've ever read that article. Heh. That has to be the biggest pile of horse crap I've ever read. Seriously.

Hypatia,

Columnaris normally shows as a secondary infection and is usually brought on by bad water quality.

I don't believe columnaris is contagious. I believe that many fish, if not all FW fish, carry the columnaris bacteria. Just like people have streptococcus and staphylococcus bacteria on the top layers of the skin. Neither of these are a problem unless they get into the bottom layers and produce an infection.

Rainbowfish are prone to columnaris. Untreated columnaris is usually the first step for ulcers and fish TB. I've dealt with quite a bit of columnaris.

1. Will salt help with this gram-negative bacterial infection or not?
There is a lot of disagreement on this; it seems, in what I read. So if you say it does, why do you say it does?
Click to expand...
IME salt will not help with columnaris.

4. Will antibiotics, or whatever other treatment you may recommend, harm my bio-filtration... this seems like a big problem to me given that poor water quality is a primary culprit in fish disease (the diamond showing symptoms is a new addition to the tank... about two weeks)?
Click to expand...
See my comments on water quality, below.

Just as info:
I do 25% water changes every three to four weeks. I was about to do one anyway, but have held off until I know more about what is the best treatment plan.
Click to expand...
Aside from the fish being stressed to begin with, this is part of the reason why you have columnaris. You really *do* need to do more frequent water changes. The minimum is 25% per *week*. Regardless of what your test results show, the water is polluted. All we can currently test for in the hobby field are nitrates. We cannot test for DOCs, Dissolved Organic Compounds, which accumulate in the tank via natural processes. The only way to remove these from your water is via water changes.

Here's a series of articles by RTR on water changes and OTS:

Water Change Basics: Why, How, How Much
http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/water/waterchange.html
Water Change Math:
http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/water/waterchangemath.html
OTS
http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/water/otswater.html

I can reproduce columnaris threads VERY easily in *ANY* of my rainbowfish tanks. All I have to do is go 10 days without a water change. Bingo, columnaris threads on the mouth.

I've tried many different types of antibiotics, none which have erradicated columnaris from my rainbowfish tanks, or any of my other tanks. It will show up if the conditions are right. I almost never see it anywhere anymore, unless I miss a water change ;)

Anyhow, to combat columnaris infection:

If the infected fish is *really* bad, QT it. If it's just the start of columnaris, leave him in the main tank.

1. Drop your water temperature down to 75*. Columnaris does not thrive in cooler water.

2. Start doing water changes of at least 50% every day in the main tank. You'll most likely see a definite improvement by day three.

3. If fresh water does not help, try Furan-2, nitrofurazone, before any of those other antibiotics. It's a broad range antibiotic and works well in most cases. IME it does not harm the biofilter.

4. If the Furan does not work, then try some of those other antibiotics.

Keep me updated?

Roan
 
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I've heard the disease can become more active this time of year. I got some guppies from WallyWorld and ended up with cotton mouth. 2 Guppies infected 2 of my long fin danios, 3 of my zebra danios, and 4 of my white clouds. I'm convinced its contagious. I ran E.M. tablets (erythromycin sp?) for 4 days and I noticed a difference the first day. Before I started the treatment I lost all but 2 white clouds and 1 zebra danio. Oh yeah and both the guppies.
I had initially tried the salt treatment but it didn't work. I'd definately up the water changes like Roan said. I do a 20-25% change every week, sometimes more often if the situation calls for it.
 
I forgot to add that antibiotics shouldn't hurt your other fish. I had guppy fry and live plants in the tank when I treated and it was fine. My snail and ghost shrimp were in a different tank so I'm not sure if its ok for them though.
 
Chickieepooh2u said:
I've heard the disease can become more active this time of year. I got some guppies from WallyWorld and ended up with cotton mouth. 2 Guppies infected 2 of my long fin danios, 3 of my zebra danios, and 4 of my white clouds. I'm convinced its contagious.
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I haven't had that happen, myself. I've only ever had itself confined to the affected fish and other fish that experienced the same stress, ie: in shipping.

That doesn't mean I don't believe you or that it isn't true. What I stated earlier was a belief based on my own experiences. If my experiences change or I unearth even more convincing facts that it is, then that will most likely change.


WallyWorld? Isn't that in VA/MD? Or is it a franchise LFS?

Roan
 
Chickieepooh2u said:
I forgot to add that antibiotics shouldn't hurt your other fish. I had guppy fry and live plants in the tank when I treated and it was fine. My snail and ghost shrimp were in a different tank so I'm not sure if its ok for them though.
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Antibiotics won't hurt the fish, that's correct, but antibiotics kill bacteria. That's what they are supposed to do. Unfortunately that means your biofilter as well.

Roan
 
Roan Art said:
WallyWorld? Isn't that in VA/MD? Or is it a franchise LFS?

Roan
Click to expand...

LOL Thats what I call Walmart.

I don't have a bio filter... yet... so I didn't have a problem with it killing the bacteria. I tried the salt treatment first with no luck. The antibiotics were a last ditch effort and thankfully it worked.

I had read some articles online that said this time of year breakouts of cotton mouth were more common. Probably because of the rise in overall temperature I'm thinking. Anyhow.. this was just my experience.
 
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