Clown Loaches...

[debaric]

I have 5 3-4" clowns in my 75, someday when I own a home (hopefully in the next 3-4 years) I will upgrade to a 125 or more likely 180. I just keeep them really healthy by changing water twice a week and feeding them different food. I just hope they dont get over 6" in the next 3 years. If I get the 180 that I want I will want to put some peaceful cichlids in there with them for a nice show tank.

 

[alergic__1]

sounds like a plan....yeah tell me about the house thing...my boyfriend and I had a house in New Brunswick....we moved to Alberta and had to move into a condo because you would not believe the pricing on houses out here....seriously...you pay like 200,000 for a crappy trailor....crappy houses are like 300,000-500,000...it's nuts! we could fit a larger tank that the 90 gallon here...but we just want to wait to finish paying off some bills then eventually start looking for a house...hopefully by then prices will have gone down

 

[H3D]

Most aquarium fish's life spans are shortened compared to their living in the wild, that does not make it wrong in my opinion as long as they live a healthy and happy life.

This is not true at all. Most aquarium fish live as long as they do in the wild if not longer. Purposefully shortening the life of the fish we keep seems morally wrong in my opinion.

Clown loaches can get even bigger in the wild then they can in a 180gal aquarium. Agree? So, keeping a clown loach in even a 180g tank is "stunting" it in regards to how they grow in the wild. I think in most cases that aquarium keeping in general tends to stunt some fish. That is why when you view fish profiles, they mention that in the wild they reach a much larger size then even the largest of aquariums.

I said 180 gallons was the absolute minimum. Many clown loach keepers are currently having great success. The argument you present suggest that we should not keep fish in aquariums at all. It does not suggest that it is morally OK to purposefully stunt your fish.

 

[YoFishboy]

Sorry for being slightly off topic here, but, unlike most other fish, most mbuna actually grow larger in captivity, by about 20-25%...research suggests that it might be due to the tendency for mbuna to be fed more protein in captivity than they get in the wild. However, most mbuna do actually eat some protein in the wild, some more than others, (like Labidochromis caeruleus), primarily tiny freshwater crustaceans.

In regards to clown loaches, and most fish for that matter, I think area, not gallons. My loaches are kept in tanks that are 5 feet long and heavily filtered with lots of water changes. They are happy and growing. Technically, any environment we do for any fish will always be smaller than it's natural environment, even for a neon in a 1,000 gallons! I try to be reasonable in the tanks I put my fish in and in the fish I choose. I house my fish in as large a tank as possible in relation to their likely growth in captivity, with the highest water quality and food as possible. Like so many things, balance and reason is a good guide.

 

[number1sixerfan]

I said 180 gallons was the absolute minimum. Many clown loach keepers are currently having great success. The argument you present suggest that we should not keep fish in aquariums at all. It does not suggest that it is morally OK to purposefully stunt your fish.

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. When people say "you need to move your loaches(or any larger fish for that matter) out of your 90g", they say it without even seeing the tank or the state of health the fish is in. These fish can be kept in a 90-125g if properly taken care of and still be happy. The proof is here at the forums, there are people on this site that keep these fish happy and healthy in a 125g tank and have been doing so for years.

It does not matter if you say180g is the minimum, whatever tank you keep them in is still thousands to millions of gallons smaller than what they would live in. The only thing the bigger tank is doing is letting them get larger. They CAN be healthy without reaching their maximum size.

Like I said before, many fish in aquariums will not reach the size they do in the wild. This is simply fact. There will be SOME at maximum size, but most will be smaller(either slightly smaller or a lot smaller).

But you corrected me in saying that they do live longer in captivity. Think about this, they are living longer in captivity while not reaching the maximum size they would in the wild. This also suggest that the fish do not need to reach maximum size to be healthy.

 

[H3D]

Sorry for being slightly off topic here, but, unlike most other fish, most mbuna actually grow larger in captivity, by about 20-25%...research suggests that it might be due to the tendency for mbuna to be fed more protein in captivity than they get in the wild. However, most mbuna do actually eat some protein in the wild, some more than others, (like Labidochromis caeruleus), primarily tiny freshwater crustaceans.

In regards to clown loaches, and most fish for that matter, I think area, not gallons. My loaches are kept in tanks that are 5 feet long and heavily filtered with lots of water changes. They are happy and growing. Technically, any environment we do for any fish will always be smaller than it's natural environment, even for a neon in a 1,000 gallons! I try to be reasonable in the tanks I put my fish in and in the fish I choose. I house my fish in as large a tank as possible in relation to their likely growth in captivity, with the highest water quality and food as possible. Like so many things, balance and reason is a good guide.

Well put Yo. The reason I suggest 180 gallons as the absolute minimum for adult clown loaches (8"+) is because of its area 6'*2'*2'. We often forget that we also take away from this area with the decor we add.

 

[H3D]

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. When people say "you need to move your loaches(or any larger fish for that matter) out of your 90g", they say it without even seeing the tank or the state of health the fish is in. These fish can be kept in a 90-125g if properly taken care of and still be happy. The proof is here at the forums, there are people on this site that keep these fish happy and healthy in a 125g tank and have been doing so for years.

It does not matter if you say180g is the minimum, whatever tank you keep them in is still thousands to millions of gallons smaller than what they would live in. The only thing the bigger tank is doing is letting them get larger. They CAN be healthy without reaching their maximum size.

Like I said before, many fish in aquariums will not reach the size they do in the wild. This is simply fact. There will be SOME at maximum size, but most will be smaller(either slightly smaller or a lot smaller).

But you corrected me in saying that they do live longer in captivity. Think about this, they are living longer in captivity while not reaching the maximum size they would in the wild. This also suggest that the fish do not need to reach maximum size to be healthy.

Loaches are very different from most other freshwater aquarium fish as they are almost all captured in the wild. The proof that stunting is unhealthy for them is that most captive clown loaches do not reach sexual maturity. This means they die before they have become adults. How can a fish that dies while it is still a juvenile be considered healthy? THEY CANNOT. You keep saying that fish do not reach maximum size; this is very different from the notion of average size which is usually what is given. Sure not all clown loaches will reach their maximum size, but most should reach their average size if well cared for.

 

[fishorama]

number1sixerfan,by your "logic" it would be ok to keep a 1 inch neon in a 4 inch x 1.5 in. tank, as long as the water was clean. The loach in the video is almost 12 inches so keeping it in a 75g is the same proportion 4ft x 1.5ft. But really what happens is instead of 25+ years it will die in 8-10 years, still a long time. Like people who die by 30, not really a full life by even third world standards.

 

[H3D]

Good point fishorama! But it would be more like a human who died at 12 years.

 

[number1sixerfan]

number1sixerfan,by your "logic" it would be ok to keep a 1 inch neon in a 4 inch x 1.5 in. tank, as long as the water was clean. The loach in the video is almost 12 inches so keeping it in a 75g is the same proportion 4ft x 1.5ft. But really what happens is instead of 25+ years it will die in 8-10 years, still a long time. Like people who die by 30, not really a full life by even third world standards.

Not true, let me explain. It is more than simple math, it's real world application. If I buy a clown loach at 4 inches and place him in a 75 gallon tank. And I move him when he gets to six inches to a 90 gallon. The loach only grows to 8 or 9 inches, which is a size of maturity(correct me if i am wrong) and leaving a healthy life. I would believe this is ok. This is my logic. Not keeping a 12inch loach in a 90 gallon tank. The loach will not reach their 'average' or maximum size but will still reach adulthood and be happy(if well taken care of).

This is my logic. Most loaches will not reach 10 or 12 inches in a 90 gallon tank.