confused- where the heck am I in this cycle?

[injunear]

Logarithms can have different bases i.e. the number that is multiplied by the result over and over again. The one you describe is a log with a base of 10. Bacteria grow to the log of the base of 2. For example Log(base 10)(2) = 100 Log(base 10)(3) = 1000 while Log (base 2)(2) = 4 and Log(base2)(3)= 8

Glad to here that you have nitrites and nitrates. That means that you are well on you way to being completed. I would guess it will be only a week or two more.

Ah, yes of course.....Symtomatic of being an "injunear", I don't know my high school mathematics.....

BTW, I've always had NitrItes and NitrAtes, at least for the past 3~4 weeks. The problem appeared about a couple of weeks ago when it appeared that the cycle stalled, and in fact did as the ammonia levels stopped decreasing at all.

Still don't know why but the Bio-Spira got everything started up again.........

 

[injunear]

Nitrospira spp. are mostly only found in Marine habitats. The majority nitrite to nitrate converting bacteria in freshwater is in the genus Nitrobacter.

Nitrospira spp. also belong to the same family as Nitrobacter and also have an optimal tempterature of 28C.

So basically Nitrospira for marine and Nitrobacter for freshwater.

BTW if you want to read the source just type in "Nitrobacter" and "Bergey" into google. Important excerpts are available from google book search. Read starting on Page 448.

After over a year of not getting positive results, I was basically forced to change the direction of my research from how many nitrifiers to who are the nitrifiers. This was a lot of work making clone libraries and sequencing gels. But it resulted in the discovery that Nitrobacter species were not present in aquaria samples but there were lots of bacteria that were most closely related to Nitrospira.

At that time, Nitrospira were considered a strange bacterium that was not important. My research changed that. The first paper was published in January 1998 and later in that same year three other research groups (one in Australia, two in Germany) also published papers showing that Nitrospira-like bacteria not Nitrobacter were the bacteria responsible for nitrification in many different types of aquatic systems.

I knew I had read someplace that Nitrospira, and not Nitrobacter were present in aquaria but I couldn't remember the source.....

This article is the compilation of questions of an interview with Dr. Timothy A. Hovanec, the Chief Science Officer of the Aquaria Group, which includes Marineland and the inventor of BioSpira, and of course the above quote is an excerpt of that interview.
http://aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=36

Also, there's some conflicting information on the internet about the ideal nitrifying temperature for Nitrobacter, some say that increasing the temperature to as high as 92F can be beneficial while others say that the bacteria starts to die off at that temperature. It depends on what source you read.......Probably a moot point since this apparently is not the bacteria in question......

 

[THE V]

I knew I had read someplace that Nitrospira, and not Nitrobacter were present in aquaria but I couldn't remember the source.....

This article is the compilation of questions of an interview with Dr. Timothy A. Hovanec, the Chief Science Officer of the Aquaria Group, which includes Marineland and the inventor of BioSpira, and of course the above quote is an excerpt of that interview.
http://aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=36

Also, there's some conflicting information on the internet about the ideal nitrifying temperature for Nitrobacter, some say that increasing the temperature to as high as 92F can be beneficial while others say that the bacteria starts to die off at that temperature. It depends on what source you read.......Probably a moot point since this apparently is not the bacteria in question......

I just did a quick article search on the guy and needless to say I am not impressed. The guys basic experimental design is severely lacking. His sampling procedure is limited to say the least. I guess it will be a few years before anyone cares enough to dispute what he has written. He does have a patent on his methodology... I can't see him getting many royalties from it....

But there is always a chance he might be right about the particular species that are important. If his sampling procedure would have been more robust, maybe his paper would have been worth more. As you know the product developed from his research "biospira" has been canceled due to inconsistent performance. Now if he would have set up his sampling protocol correctly maybe it would have had better luck.

Regardless of what genus is responsible (Nitrosomas, Nitrobacter, Nitrospira, or Nitrococcus) it is all in the same family with an optimal growth temp of 28C.

 

[injunear]

I just did a quick article search on the guy and needless to say I am not impressed. The guys basic experimental design is severely lacking. His sampling procedure is limited to say the least. I guess it will be a few years before anyone cares enough to dispute what he has written. He does have a patent on his methodology... I can't see him getting many royalties from it....

But there is always a chance he might be right about the particular species that are important. If his sampling procedure would have been more robust, maybe his paper would have been worth more. As you know the product developed from his research "biospira" has been canceled due to inconsistent performance. Now if he would have set up his sampling protocol correctly maybe it would have had better luck.

Regardless of what genus is responsible (Nitrosomas, Nitrobacter, Nitrospira, or Nitrococcus) it is all in the same family with an optimal growth temp of 28C.

I'm not sure what you're saying is questionable.....I'm no expert in this arena for sure, but his product has been marketed, and it does indeed work......I have used it myself.

Perhaps it's inconsistent in its success but that's not a reflection on the bacteria introduced into aquarium. When it works, it works well and is indicative of at least being a bacterium that works.....

Unfortunately for logistical reasons (handling, refrigeration) the company removed the product from manufacture.

If you do a search on the internet of Nitrobacter, temperature, you'll see that there's plenty of references to the optimum temperature, as well as some that predict where the cutoff is for growth (as you raise the temperature), and some predict a die-off, others diminished growth; again depends on what source you read.

Some of the temperature ranges were higher than that you state, and some intimate that raising the temperature improves efficiency and growth of the bacteria to a point, whereby, again, depending on source, it either dies off or grows and multiplies at a slower rate (perhaps that’s the same thing?).

Most of this information relates to nitrifying bacteria in sludge or waste. I'm not arguing with you but just trying to find out what's the consensus is on this issue, but now I'm not sure there's even consensus on what bacteria is used, and if it has similar or same characteristics.

Having said all that, when my cycle is complete my interest in this topic will no doubt wane...:grinyes:

 

[THE V]

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/67/12/5791

This is where his paper loses all validity.

Sources of nitrifying seed biomass. Nitrifying biomass for enrichments was collected from biofarms (Table 1). Biofarms are proprietary self-contained units dedicated to producing nitrifying biofilms on BioWheels. BioWheels are a form of rotating biological contactor used as a biological filter in aquatic life support systems manufactured by The Aquaria Group (Moorpark, Calif.). Biofarms received a daily dose of ammonium chloride (2.86 mol) and sodium bicarbonate as a buffer to maintain the pH above 8.0.

One source of innoculum for all of his experiments. This shows a complete lack of experimental design as the flora of naturally seeded tanks in different area's is absolutely different. IMO anything this guy says should be taken with a very large grain of salt... he is peddling his product.

When searching the web remember to carefully look at who is stating the thing as a fact. Often they are just repeating what they have heard someone else say instead of going towards the sources. BTW a basic principle of microbiology is the organisms usually adapt to the environment that they live it. 28C is a very reasonable temperature for a lot of bodies of water.

 

[injunear]

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/67/12/5791

This is where his paper loses all validity.



One source of innoculum for all of his experiments. This shows a complete lack of experimental design as the flora of naturally seeded tanks in different area's is absolutely different. IMO anything this guy says should be taken with a very large grain of salt... he is peddling his product.

When searching the web remember to carefully look at who is stating the thing as a fact. Often they are just repeating what they have heard someone else say instead of going towards the sources. BTW a basic principle of microbiology is the organisms usually adapt to the environment that they live it. 28C is a very reasonable temperature for a lot of bodies of water.

Well, now you're talking over my head.erv: Just to demonstrate the diverse opinons about the temperature here's a couple of excerpts from different sources, and I came across many more that I can't find anymore:

The temperature for optimum growth of nitrifying bacteria is between 77-86° F (25-30° C).
Growth rate is decreased by 50% at 64° F (18° C).
Growth rate is decreased by 75% at 46-50° F.
No activity will occur at 39° F (4° C)
Nitrifying bacteria will die at 32° F (0° C).
Nitrifying bacteria will die at 120° F (49° C)
Nitrobacter is less tolerant of low temperatures than Nitrosomonas. In cold water systems, care must be taken to monitor the accumulation of nitrites.​

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html
http://www.nfkc.info/What is the Nitrogen cycle.htm

The optimum temperature for nitrification is
around 85 ºF. The kinetics roughly double with
every 10-degree increase in temperature up to
around 90 ºF (where the nitrifying bacteria die).​

http://www.airproducts.com/NR/rdonlyres/CFA34A7A-7FEC-49DD-96B0-5AD66C156543/0/02Feb05web.pdf


I'm with you on the temperature for our purposes as it's in the realm that we have to be in when adding fish.....